Hi All
Every time I hear the term "Perfect Pitch" I can't help but remember my favorite story during my year of school with Dr. Wm Braid White. For those that don't know, his "School of Pianoforte Technology" was held in the basement of his home. He was a bit cantankerous at his age but was also one of the most brilliant men I have ever met. That was just a short time ago back in 1958.
NOW FOR THE STORY
A young chap like myself came into the school and started bragging that he was going to be a good tuner because he had Perfect Pitch. Dr. White answered him in his heavy English accent, "So you have perfect pitch, well lets just see how perfect your pitch is". With that, Dr. White led this talented fellow over to a Degan , for the lack of a better word, Xylophones. This instrument had 10 bars going from 435 to 445. Dr. White proceeded to strike each bar and after each strike asked this fellow, "What note was that to which the fellow always answered "A". After going through all 10 bars, Dr. White turned to the fellow and exclaimed, "You don't have perfect pitch, you were right only once out of 10 tries.
Hope you enjoyed this story. Dr. White was quite a guy and I am very proud to have been one of his students..
I am wondering,are there any more of us out there?
Ron May, RPT
Vero Beach, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Mailhot
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:22 AM
Subject: [pianotech] Perfect Pitch and Temperments
Hi everyone.
I feel I need to jump in here with a few comments about our so-called "Perfect Pitch".
Regardless of the exact term...perfect...relative...or whatever...I've been told by quite a number of professional musicians and otherwise...over my past 50 years in the music biz...I have it.
Mom discovered it when I was under 10 years old and had been taking piano lessons for about 3 years. She was playing a Classical piece on the piano and she missed a couple of notes. Listening...I stopped her...without looking as I was in the other room...and told her what the notes should be. She was rather astounded at that. Then...the started "testing" me by playing other notes and chords to see if I could identify them...and I did. My piano teacher (who had played at Town Hall in NYC in his prime) tested me with the same results. Mom and my sister also have it.
As an aside...when I was in our first band Band back in the late 1960s...I would be asked to rattle off chords for the guys while learning songs. And...get this...driving across drawbridges while on the road...I'd be asked..."what key is that bridge in???!"...and correctly identify the key!
Call it what you will...it's both a blessing and a curse. Do I find it helps in tuning...not necessarily.
Regards to all here...keep the good discussions coming!
Marc P. Mailhot
Marco Polo Music
Westbrook, ME USA
The Love You Take is Equal to the Love You Make...
The Beatles/Abbey Road (The End)...1969
--- On Tue, 3/17/09, pianotech-request at ptg.org <pianotech-request at ptg.org> wrote:
From: pianotech-request at ptg.org <pianotech-request at ptg.org>
Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 5, Issue 226
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 10:15 AM
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments (Shawn Brock)
2. Tunic software (Phil Bondi)
3. Re: OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments (Phil Bondi)
4. Re: OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments (A440A at aol.com)
5. Re: OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments (david at piano.plus.com)
6. Re: OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments (Jon Page)
7. Re: Tunic software (Jeff Deutschle)
8. Re: OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments (David Love)
No such thing as perfect pitch... To have perfect pitch would mean for example that you could tell if a 4 was tuned to 440 or 441 with out any reference. No one can do that. Usually people who say they have perfect pitch don't even have relative pitch. Its just a line they drop to try to impress people who don't know better. Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on you or anything like that. I'm just pointing out the obvious. The subject of this email tells you all you need to know if you think about it. If a person could have perfect pitch he or she most likely couldn't temper intervals. If we look at the definition of temperament we can gather that it is an imperfect being, which contradicts the statements of perfect pitch. Lots of good players and even a few not so good players have relative pitch. I am one of those. For example if I hear a song on the radio I can tell what key its being played in by listening to the guitar. I can say, oh this is in g. I can't tell you though if the band is tuned to 440 or a little above or below though. I can tell because I have played guitar for 20 years and I'm use to the tambour of each chord... So don't believe the hype!
Regards,
Shawn Brock, RPT
----- Original Message -----
From: KeyKat88 at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:25 AM
Subject: [pianotech] OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments
Greetings,
How can anyone have perfect pitch?
Yesterday, I tuned for a retired piano tuner, who had tuned his piano about 3 months ago. (I dont know why he hired me) He says he has perfect pitch. Lo and behold, when I examined his work, although 3 months a "worn" tuning, it was pretty much "dead on".
Question: Now, if a person "au moderne" (nowdays) says they have perfect pitch, were/are humans' ears built differently than say, in Beethoven's day, where those living at that time who claimed that they had perfect pitch???
I dont get it. Does the human ear get used to what temperaments are in vogue at the time?
Julia
Reading, PA
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.
Hi all.
I know I'm a few days late on this discussion, but after reading some
comments here, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents. I also want you to know that
my experience with ETDs is limited to just one, and I do not have an
understanding of how the others work.
A few years ago, after talking to Dave Andersen and Tom Servinsky, I started on
my quest to 'tune like Virgil'. I find Virgil a fascinating study in
accuracy, spot-on unisons, and the ability to do all that while teaching a class
is just phenomenal. I always felt my best aural tunings were as good or better
than the tunings I was getting from my ETD. Cocky? no. Confident. I learned how
to tune aurally from using my ETD as my guide, but after watching Virgil,
hearing what he was producing, and talking to those techs, I realized I was
woefully behind those techs in my personal quest to bring each piano I service
to its pinnacle. I better mention that Larry Crabb might be a tad upset with me
if I didn't mention his influence and his involvement in my development of
aural tuning. He taught me what to listen for, and how to test.
A few years pass while I'm on my quest to sound like Virgil, Dave, and
others that I felt were steps ahead of me aurally..always asking questions, and
trying to listen and hear what I was missing in my tunings..
..then I heard Tunic.
I remember hearing Bernhard's example that he shared on pianotech..a piece
in Bmin. - and I remember thinking..oh my..that's it. There were some
comments that his sample was a nicely tuned piano with a good voice attached to
it. I could not have disagreed more. What I heard was a tuning that transcended
anything I had heard before from a ETD, or was able to produce consistently
aurally.
Last year in Anaheim, Dave Andersen was there with a piano..so was the
Ranvenscroft. Both of these instruments impressed me with their clarity and
translucent voice. I forget which one, but I believe one of those pianos was
tuned using Tunic. As a new RVP, the majority of my time was tied up,
literally!, in meetings, so I was not able to take in all that Anaheim had to
offer. I met up with Bernhard in the lobby..on Sunday..as people are leaving
from their Convention experience, I'm finally getting to mine, and it's
with a developer that shared with me 'the sound' I was after. After
talking with Bernhard for 1.5 hrs., I agreed to purchase his software as soon as
I was able. It took me 2 months to save up the money, and it has been a fabulous
journey since then. My older ETD, while a trustworthy instrument and faithful
tool, has been relegated to strictly pitch raises and poorly-scaled pianos. It
has been replaced with Bernhards OnlyPure software, because the results that are
produced with this software turns heads.
I still tune aurally once in awhile, but Bernhard Stopper has developed the
software that Virgil Smith has been hearing all his life. I would have never
guessed that a piece of piano tuning software would ever be able to produce
Virgil Smith-type tunings without alot of tweaking and gnashing of teeth with
the software. With Tunic, you turn it on, and go. I does not get any simpler
than that. The results turns heads.
-Phil Bondi(Fl)
Julia, to answer your question..I believe the ear does get accustomed to
what it is use to hearing..as in Beethoven's time.
Shawn - I have 'perfect pitch' and this is a road we've down many
times
before here. I don't like the term either, and it is not necessaritly
the ability to detect 440 or 441. That to my ear is phenominal hearing.
I can tell you that in the last year I took a test being offered by a
University Of California college. I forget witch one..50+ questions, and
I got 100%. It dealt with pitch and speed to answer the question.
I use Tunic almost exclusively to tune with now.
-Phil Bondi(Fl)
Shawn writes:
<< No such thing as perfect pitch... To have perfect pitch would mean
for
example that you could tell if a 4 was tuned to 440 or 441 with out any
reference. No one can do that. >>
Au contraire. I have encountered people that could sense that a note was 4
cents sharp in a heartbeat. Usually, perfect pitch describes the ability to
know what a note is, but there are savants out there that have much closer
abilities. I don't know how they do it, but they do. (I've measured
with the SAT
and sure enough, they know when it gets farther off than this).
Oddly enough, the change of temperament doens't seem to bother them.
Regards,
Ed Foote RPT
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
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The problem with claims of, and discussions about, "perfect pitch", is
that the terms are not defined. People don't say exactly what they mean by
"perfect pitch".
Do they mean they can tell you the fundamental frequency of a reasonably
pure musical sound to within 3 Hz, or 1 Hz, or what? Or just that if you
play a note on a musical instrument, they can tell you which note it is?
My friend's wife is a fine pianist, and if you play a note on the piano
keyboard, she can indeed tell you what note it is (which I cannot do).
But if I were to play to her out of the blue one day, my C 517.3 tuning
fork, I doubt if she would be able to tell me that it was C 6Hz below
concert pitch.
So I think next time someone claims to have 'perfect pitch', it might
be
in order to ask "Oh that's interesting - what do you mean?".
Best regards,
David.
>... "perfect pitch", is that the terms are not defined.
Any sales rep can tell you that its the one that closes the deal.
--
Regards,
Jon Page
Have you ever compared a Tunic tuning with a PTG Master Tuning? If so,
what, if any, is the difference?
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Phil Bondi <phil at philbondi.com> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I know I'm a few days late on this discussion, but after reading some
> comments here, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents. I also want you to know
> that my experience with ETDs is limited to just one, and I do not have an
> understanding of how the others work.
>
> A few years ago, after talking to Dave Andersen and Tom Servinsky, I
started
> on my quest to 'tune like Virgil'. I find Virgil a fascinating
study in
> accuracy, spot-on unisons, and the ability to do all that while teaching a
> class is just phenomenal. I always felt my best aural tunings were as good
> or better than the tunings I was getting from my ETD. Cocky? no.
Confident.
> I learned how to tune aurally from using my ETD as my guide, but after
> watching Virgil, hearing what he was producing, and talking to those
techs,
> I realized I was woefully behind those techs in my personal quest to bring
> each piano I service to its pinnacle. I better mention that Larry Crabb
> might be a tad upset with me if I didn't mention his influence and his
> involvement in my development of aural tuning. He taught me what to listen
> for, and how to test.
>
> A few years pass while I'm on my quest to sound like Virgil, Dave, and
> others that I felt were steps ahead of me aurally..always asking
questions,
> and trying to listen and hear what I was missing in my tunings..
>
> ..then I heard Tunic.
>
> I remember hearing Bernhard's example that he shared on pianotech..a
piece
> in Bmin. - and I remember thinking..oh my..that's it. There were some
> comments that his sample was a nicely tuned piano with a good voice
attached
> to it. I could not have disagreed more. What I heard was a tuning that
> transcended anything I had heard before from a ETD, or was able to produce
> consistently aurally.
>
> Last year in Anaheim, Dave Andersen was there with a piano..so was the
> Ranvenscroft. Both of these instruments impressed me with their clarity
and
> translucent voice. I forget which one, but I believe one of those pianos
was
> tuned using Tunic. As a new RVP, the majority of my time was tied up,
> literally!, in meetings, so I was not able to take in all that Anaheim had
> to offer. I met up with Bernhard in the lobby..on Sunday..as people are
> leaving from their Convention experience, I'm finally getting to mine,
and
> it's with a developer that shared with me 'the sound' I was
after. After
> talking with Bernhard for 1.5 hrs., I agreed to purchase his software as
> soon as I was able. It took me 2 months to save up the money, and it has
> been a fabulous journey since then. My older ETD, while a trustworthy
> instrument and faithful tool, has been relegated to strictly pitch raises
> and poorly-scaled pianos. It has been replaced with Bernhards OnlyPure
> software, because the results that are produced with this software turns
> heads.
>
> I still tune aurally once in awhile, but Bernhard Stopper has developed
the
> software that Virgil Smith has been hearing all his life. I would have
never
> guessed that a piece of piano tuning software would ever be able to
produce
> Virgil Smith-type tunings without alot of tweaking and gnashing of teeth
> with the software. With Tunic, you turn it on, and go. I does not get any
> simpler than that. The results turns heads.
>
> -Phil Bondi(Fl)
>
>
>
--
Regards,
Jeff Deutschle
Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. Thank You.
Perfect pitch is not perfect enough to, say, chromatically tune and octave’s worth of notes and have them all come out in a perfect equal temperament. People with pitch identification capacity are able to identify within a range. If you play an A440, an A425, and A450 they will recognize all of those as A’s but may not recognize sharp or flat from a particular reference. That ability probably depends on their musical experience, training, instrument familiarity or other factors. Many people who have perfect pitch aren’t necessarily musicians. There’s a strong genetic component plus, it seems, a critical window for it to develop. There is an interesting and ongoing study at UCSF (University of California San Francisco) being run be a genetic researcher that I know well. There is nothing written in the genetic code about A440. The ability has to do with the ability to memorize or identify pitch much like most of us identify, say, color. We can all pick out red but many colors will fall under the classification of red that are on both sides of the spectrum. During the historical period when A was lower than 440 people with perfect pitch weren’t constantly complaining that the A they were hearing sounded flat. The memorized “A” pitch simply had a different hertz reference. Consider this. Take a singer with a great sense of pitch and have them sing a one octave chromatic scale. Record it. Precisely measure each note and translate that to the tuning of a single octave. See how it sounds. Tuning a piano is a different thing altogether when measured at that level of precision.
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hopp
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 6:09 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments
Hi,
This is not an answer but an observation. Locally there is a tuner who claims to have perfect pitch and even informs his clients
of this and yet he tunes with an SAT III. Go figure?
Steven Hopp
Midland, TX.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: KeyKat88 at aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:25:14 -0400
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] OT: Perfect pitch and temperaments
Greetings,
How can anyone have perfect pitch?
Yesterday, I tuned for a retired piano tuner, who had tuned his piano about 3 months ago. (I dont know why he hired me) He says he has perfect pitch. Lo and behold, when I examined his work, although 3 months a "worn" tuning, it was pretty much "dead on".
Question: Now, if a person "au moderne" (nowdays) says they have perfect pitch, were/are humans' ears built differently than say, in Beethoven's day, where those living at that time who claimed that they had perfect pitch???
I dont get it. Does the human ear get used to what temperaments are in vogue at the time?
Julia
Reading, PA
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