On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:33 PM, <wimblees at aol.com> wrote: > David > > Yes, an attorney would be best to consult in this case. But it seems that > if the customer thinks the dealer sold a piano that is not in the condition > the dealer claimed it was, it could be grounds for fraud. The only way to > judge if the piano is defective, is to have another tuner evaluate it. If > that evaluation includes tuning the piano, then the warrantee has > been voided But if the piano was not in the condition the customer was lead > to believe it was, then it refers back to the fraud part. In either case, > the warrantee is voided, and the customer can make a claim against the > dealer. It will be up to the dealer to decide if he wants to enforce the > warrantee claim, or make a "deal" with the customer to keep from going to > trial. > > Are you just speculating on a possible case here, or is there a situation > where this scenario is actually taking place? > > Wim > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 3:46 am > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties > > The question really boils down to whether the dealer can void the > warranty for someone else tuning the piano and whether stipulating that only > a certain tech can work on the piano for the warranty to remain in effect > (we’re not talking about who is designated to repair a warranty item) does > violate some fair trade laws. If the Buyer makes the purchase and finds > that the tech provided by the dealer is a lousy tuner and voicer, are they > forced continue to use that tech in order to keep the structural warranty in > force and do they necessarily give up the protections of the warranty by > having another tech simply tune the piano? I believe there are laws which > protect the buyer in this case and that’s what I would like to know. Judges > don’t rule arbitrarily, they do it based on case law. Anyway, clearly this > is not the forum to get this question definitively answered but it is > germane to how we conduct our business and whether our customers are within > their rights to use the tech of their choice without risk of voiding a > warranty. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org<pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?>] > *On Behalf Of *wimblees at aol.com > *Sent:* Friday, October 02, 2009 12:34 AM > *To:* pianotech at ptg.org > *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] Warranties > > David > > You're starting to throw too many variable into the equation that are too > unrealistic. So let's start over. > > From the description you gave, (dealer sells a piano with warrantee that > stipulates only his20tuner can tune and work on the piano), all the dealer > wants is make sure the piano will be taken care of by someone from his > store, someone who is "on his side". What he doesn't want is for an other > tuner to work on the piano and tell the customer all the things that are > wrong with the piano, and have the customer complain to the store. One way > for the dealer to make sure no one else touches the piano is to put in the > warrantee that in case someone else works on the piano, the warrantee is > void. It's the dealer's warrantee. He can put anything he wants in there. > (within reason). The dealer can put in there that the piano needs to be > tuned once a month, and only on a Sunday afternoon. It's up to the customer > to accept that clause in the warrantee. If the customer doesn't like that > stipulation, he doesn't have to buy the piano. > > One thing my lawyer told me a long time ago. Any contract, agreement, > deal, etc, between any two parties is legal, no matter what it says. It's > when one party disagrees with the interpretation of the agreement, contract, > etc, or when one party decides he/she doens't want to abide by the agreement > , etc, that the case goes before a judge. > > So to answer your question directly, is a warrantee that limits who can > tune the piano, legal, the answer is yes, as long as both parties agree to > the stipulation. Is it ethical? I'll let someone else answer that. > > Wim > -----Original Message----- > From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Sent: Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:26 pm > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties > So if someone is tuning the piano and the soundboard falls out the > assumption is that it was the lousy tuning technique that caused it? I > don’t think so. Steinway offers a warranty and yet there is no stipulation > that it be a Steinway tech who works on it. I suppose if someone made a > claim about a bent tuning pin then Steinway could easily say that it was the > tech who bent it (authorized Steinway or not) but if the ribs fall off the > bottom of the soundboard I don’t think they would likely sidestep the > warranty claiming poor and unauthorized tuning technique—nor would they > likely prevail I would imagine. If Jiffy Lube tries to fix the oil leak > then it would make sense that the warranty for that part is voided. But if > Jiffy Lube simply changes the oil with dealer recommen ded parts and > materials, it doesn’t. > > Anyway, I would be curious to know the answer if someone knows an > attorney. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pia notech-bounces at ptg.org<pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?>] > *On Behalf Of *wimblees at aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:51 PM > *To:* pianotech at ptg.o rg <pianotech at ptg.org> > *Subject:* Re: [pianotech] Warranties > > David > > If the dealer is going to give a 5 year warrantee on his piano, then I > think he has the right to demand that only his service tech service the > instrument. That doesn't mean the customer can't have someone else tune the > piano, but if anything goes wrong, the dealer can always claim that the > other tech was at fault, no matter what it is, and thus void the > warrantee. > > As someone else said, car makers want only factory trained mechanics work > on their cars. That doesn't mean you can't take your car to Jiffy Lube for > an oil change, but if you take the car in complaining about an oil leak, the > dealer, with the backing of the factory, can claim unauthorized mechanics > who didn't know what they were doing worked on the car, and thus the > warrantee is void. > W im > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Sent: Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:30 pm > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties > Here’s the situation. A dealer sells a used piano. The customer asks > for a warranty. The dealer says he will issue a 5 year warranty but only if > his technician services, i.e. tunes and maintains, the piano. > > 1. Is that legal? > 2. Is that ethical? > > David Love > 0A www.davidlovepianos.com > > *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org<pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?>] > *On Behalf Of *Israel Stein > *Sent:* Thursday, October 01, 2009 3:24 PM > *To:* pianotech at ptg.org > *Subject:* [pianotech] Warranties > > >David Love wrote: > > > >Can a dealer issue a warranty on a piano stipulating that the warranty > is only valid if their technician services >the piano? I thought that was > illegal under fair trade laws or something related. > >David Love > Folks, > > An attorney with knowledge of contract law should be consulted. A warranty > is a contract, and in some states such a contract may be illegal - and > therefore unenforceable - and in others it might not be. > > Regardless of any contracts or warranties, in many jurisdictions the > doctrine of "implied warranty" is recognized, which may apply even if the > dealer's/rebuilder's warranty is legally void. Which means that the item > being sold or item being delivered after rebuilding must be capable of > functioning as intended - otherwise the client has a valid claim against the > dealer or rebuilder. This is a complicated issue. I was once involved in a > small claims case here in California, as the "other" technician who was > called on to examine a "rebuilt" piano that did not hold pitch at all over a > year after delivery. (it was a botch job - new pinblock with tuning pin > torque between 20 and 50 lbs.) What I found out from questions asked and > statements made by the judge from the bench is as follows (this of course > applies only to California - other states may have different standards): > > 1. . It is, up to the buyer to p rove that a condition exists which > prevents the item from functioning as inten ded and that this condition is > the fault of the dealer or rebuilder. The dealer or rebuilder cannot > prevent the customer from employing others to help ascertain such a > condition - implied warranty applies in all cases. > > 2. Under implied warranty, the dealer or rebuilder must be given an > opportunity to correct the defect. If the dealer or rebuilder refuses or is > unable to do so, the client may20hire someone else to do the repair - and > make a claim against the dealer or rebuilder. Of course, it would probably > involve going to court... > > 3. The dealer or rebuilder must be notified of the defect in a reasonable > amount of time. In my case the judge essentially punted - he dismissed the > case because the problem was not brought to the "rebuilder's" attention in a > reasonable amount of time. Never did find out what "reasonable time" meant > in California... > > In other words - this is an issue for a lawyer, and the rules may differ > from state to state. > > Israel Stein > Baldwin did it for years, sort of. I live in a 2 store town and whenever I ran across a warranty issue on a Baldwin(back when Baldwin was Baldwin)if I wasn't working for the dealer or hadn't been to "Baldwin school" I had to turn it over to the dealer. After I went through this a few times I just referred the customers to the dealer when I ran across a warranty problem because I wasn't going to waste my time with the run around from Baldwin. I also wasn't going ot jack up my phone bill, for years they refused to have a toll free number for technical service, you had to call them on your dime. Mike -- I intend to live forever. So far, so good. Steven Wright Michael Magness Magness Piano Service 608-786-4404 www.IFixPianos.com email mike at ifixpianos.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20091002/49bc651f/attachment-0001.htm>
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