I've seen bottom boards swell up so much that the dampers were lifted off
the strings and the hammer rest rail was pushed up. Bruce in Saskatoon,
Canada
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of pianotech-request at ptg.org
Sent: October 24, 2010 9:59 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 24, Issue 133
Send pianotech mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of pianotech digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: How come? (Thomas Cole)
2. Re: How come? (David Love)
3. Regulation mystery (David Lawson)
4. Re: Regulation mystery (Susan Kline)
5. Re: Regulation mystery (Tony Caught)
6. Re: Regulation mystery (Richard Ucci)
7. Re: How come? (Ron Nossaman)
8. Bechstein grand lid hinges (David Boyce)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:32:18 -0700
From: Thomas Cole <tcole at cruzio.com>
To: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>, Pianotech
<pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] How come?
Message-ID: <4CC3C4E2.6010502 at cruzio.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
On 10/23/10 3:59 PM, David Love wrote:
> What do you mean by setting the pins "heavily or lightly"
This is like trying to put into English how to tie a shoe. But I might
hazard a theory about my hammer technique.
*Heavily-set pin:* the string is pulled above pitch liberally and worked
back down such that not only the twist is removed from the pin but some
additional twist is added to leave the pin almost wanting to pull the
string back sharp. This twist opposes heavy playing wanting to pull
slack out of the tuning pin segment. If the note rises after some time,
then I would say that the pin was "over set."
*Lightly-set pin:* The string is pulled above pitch moreconservatively
and after settling, the pin is left in a more or less relaxed state, as
if to anticipate only the stresses of diurnal temp/humidity changes.
To use another's terminology which never did quite catch on: it depends
on where you leave the tuning pin in the "marshmallow zone."
Tom Cole
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 23:22:43 -0700
From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] How come?
Message-ID: <003b01cb7343$de14a890$9a3df9b0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I prefer to leave the pin in a neutral setting with the smallest amount of
pitch manipulation as possible. When I'm through, if I bounce the hammer
lightly back and forth on a the same plane as the pin turns, the pin
shouldn't move. In fact when in doubt as to a pin being settled, I find
that smaller and smaller back and forth bumps until there is virtually no
movement at all will tell you if the pitch will remain stable. I prefer to
pull the pin up to the target pitch and stop (not going beyond) with
pressure exerted on the pin to offset the torque so that once the pitch
gets to where you want it the relaxing of forward and downward pressure on
the pin offsets the release of pin torque and the net effect is zero-the
pitch doesn't move. No pulling past pitch and pounding it back down.
That's less stable as it just creates a poorly distributed string segment
equilibrium as a starting point. If the pitch is sharp to begin with then
you have to decide to first lower the pitch and come from underneath or to
nudge the pitch downward. If you nudge it downward then your final test
must be a slight tug toward the sharp side to see if the pitch won't go back
sharp and to make sure that the pin isn't left with pitch lowering torque
that will relax and pull the pitch sharp.
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
From: Thomas Cole [mailto:tcole at cruzio.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:32 PM
To: David Love; Pianotech
Subject: Re: [pianotech] How come?
On 10/23/10 3:59 PM, David Love wrote:
What do you mean by setting the pins "heavily or lightly"
This is like trying to put into English how to tie a shoe. But I might
hazard a theory about my hammer technique.
Heavily-set pin: the string is pulled above pitch liberally and worked back
down such that not only the twist is removed from the pin but some
additional twist is added to leave the pin almost wanting to pull the string
back sharp. This twist opposes heavy playing wanting to pull slack out of
the tuning pin segment. If the note rises after some time, then I would say
that the pin was "over set."
Lightly-set pin: The string is pulled above pitch more conservatively and
after settling, the pin is left in a more or less relaxed state, as if to
anticipate only the stresses of diurnal temp/humidity changes.
To use another's terminology which never did quite catch on: it depends on
where you leave the tuning pin in the "marshmallow zone."
Tom Cole
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:02:42 +1100
From: "David Lawson" <dlawson at davidlawsonspianos.com.au>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: [pianotech] Regulation mystery
Message-ID: <DE85A26D185946B7AB8CCCB3C8639B65 at Office1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I regularly service about twenty pianos at a Conservatorium, both uprights
and grands. The uprights are mostly Yamaha U1 models about 15 to twenty
years old, with a couple of Kawai KS models also. I regulate the lost motion
on these instruments so that the capstan holds the wippen so there is no
lost motion, however, it is not holding the hammer off the rest. I have just
finished the regular maintenance of these this week, and discovered that all
but one had increased the height of the capstans to hold the hammers off the
hammerest by about 1/4 inch or 6cm. My first reaction was that someone had
been at them, turning up the capstan. However, this is not possible as I am
the only tech. who attends to these pianos.
So, my question is this: Would the sudden change from drought,(about ten
years) to very wet conditions, have brought on this amazing change? I find
it difficult to believe that this much change could be brought about by
humidity. Let's face it, the metal pin holding the capstan is tight into the
rear of the key, which would surely not increase the height by this much
with humidity! I checked the back touch on the key-frame, and it seems quite
normal.The only piano that did not have this happen to it, had an additional
heater in that room, which may give us a clue.
Your thoughts please.
David Lawson Wangaratta Australia
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 01:24:34 -0700
From: Susan Kline <skline at peak.org>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulation mystery
Message-ID: <4CC3ED42.2070604 at peak.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
Wiser heads will probably have better ideas, but is it possible that the
keybed itself tried to expand lengthwise from humidity, was constrained
by the case, and bowed upward instead? Is the problem uniform across all
registers, or is it worst in the middle?
Susan Kline, Oregon, it's raining and windy and warm: "Hawaiian Wet
Front" slamming through.
On 10/24/2010 1:02 AM, David Lawson wrote:
> I regularly service about twenty pianos at a Conservatorium, both
> uprights and grands. The uprights are mostly Yamaha U1 models about 15
> to twenty years old, with a couple of Kawai KS models also. I regulate
> the lost motion on these instruments so that the capstan holds the
> wippen so there is no lost motion, however, it is not holding the
> hammer off the rest. I have just finished the regular maintenance of
> these this week, and discovered that all but one had increased the
> height of the capstans to hold the hammers off the hammerest by about
> 1/4 inch or 6cm. My first reaction was that someone had been at them,
> turning up the capstan. However, this is not possible as I am the only
> tech. who attends to these pianos.
> So, my question is this: Would the sudden change from drought,(about
> ten years) to very wet conditions, have brought on this amazing
> change? I find it difficult to believe that this much change could be
> brought about by humidity. Let's face it, the metal pin holding the
> capstan is tight into the rear of the key, which would surely not
> increase the height by this much with humidity! I checked the back
> touch on the key-frame, and it seems quite normal.The only piano that
> did not have this happen to it, had an additional heater in that room,
> which may give us a clue.
> Your thoughts please.
> David Lawson Wangaratta Australia
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:46:53 +1030
From: "Tony Caught" <acaught at internode.on.net>
To: "'David Lawson'" <dlawson at davidlawsonspianos.com.au>,
<pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulation mystery
Message-ID: <000601cb735c$3375ba50$9a612ef0$@on.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi David,
I have worked in both Darwin and Alice Springs for over 20 years, Darwin
humidity varies from 90% to 18% Alice springs Humidity from (at present) 75%
to 5%. These readings are for outside so you have to take into consideration
the variations in the buildings that house the pianos. Experience has taught
me to regulate according to the present climatic conditions in these two
places, thus when the air is dry leave the capstains with a big wink (about
1/3 to ? mil loose) and when the humidity is high, the capstains should be
tight. Clearance only for the jack to return on a slow lift of the key.
Your capstain has about 6mm lift and the hammer goes forward about 48mm.
Moisture in the cross grain of the timber and moisture in the back touch
felt will cause the capstain to vary in hight by about ? mm.
Another reason for Dampp-Chasers in pianos.
Regards
Tony Caught
acaught at internode.on.net
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of David Lawson
Sent: Sunday, 24 October 2010 6:33 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Regulation mystery
I regularly service about twenty pianos at a Conservatorium, both uprights
and grands. The uprights are mostly Yamaha U1 models about 15 to twenty
years old, with a couple of Kawai KS models also. I regulate the lost motion
on these instruments so that the capstan holds the wippen so there is no
lost motion, however, it is not holding the hammer off the rest. I have just
finished the regular maintenance of these this week, and discovered that all
but one had increased the height of the capstans to hold the hammers off the
hammerest by about 1/4 inch or 6cm. My first reaction was that someone had
been at them, turning up the capstan. However, this is not possible as I am
the only tech. who attends to these pianos.
So, my question is this: Would the sudden change from drought,(about ten
years) to very wet conditions, have brought on this amazing change? I find
it difficult to believe that this much change could be brought about by
humidity. Let's face it, the metal pin holding the capstan is tight into the
rear of the key, which would surely not increase the height by this much
with humidity! I checked the back touch on the key-frame, and it seems quite
normal.The only piano that did not have this happen to it, had an additional
heater in that room, which may give us a clue.
Your thoughts please.
David Lawson Wangaratta Australia
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 07:45:17 -0400
From: Richard Ucci <richarducci at comcast.net>
To: David Lawson <dlawson at davidlawsonspianos.com.au>,
"pianotech at ptg.org" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulation mystery
Message-ID: <ABB554CB-23DB-4DEA-A9DF-8BBCBDCFDFB6 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
DelSp="yes"
I had the same thing with a 70's p-2.
I had to turn the capstans down as far as they would go.
This too was in a school with no humidity control.
Rick Ucci/ Ucci Piano
www.uccipiano.com
On Oct 24, 2010, at 4:02 AM, "David Lawson"
<dlawson at davidlawsonspianos.com.au
> wrote:
> I regularly service about twenty pianos at a Conservatorium, both
> uprights and grands. The uprights are mostly Yamaha U1 models about
> 15 to twenty years old, with a couple of Kawai KS models also. I
> regulate the lost motion on these instruments so that the capstan
> holds the wippen so there is no lost motion, however, it is not
> holding the hammer off the rest. I have just finished the regular
> maintenance of these this week, and discovered that all but one had
> increased the height of the capstans to hold the hammers off the
> hammerest by about 1/4 inch or 6cm. My first reaction was that
> someone had been at them, turning up the capstan. However, this is
> not possible as I am the only tech. who attends to these pianos.
> So, my question is this: Would the sudden change from drought,(about
> ten years) to very wet conditions, have brought on this amazing
> change? I find it difficult to believe that this much change could
> be brought about by humidity. Let's face it, the metal pin holding
> the capstan is tight into the rear of the key, which would surely
> not increase the height by this much with humidity! I checked the
> back touch on the key-frame, and it seems quite normal.The only
> piano that did not have this happen to it, had an additional heater
> in that room, which may give us a clue.
> Your thoughts please.
> David Lawson Wangaratta Australia
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 08:44:56 -0500
From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] How come?
Message-ID: <4CC43858.2010401 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/24/2010 12:25 AM, Bppiano wrote:
> Thanks for the input, I imagine that a soundboard doesn't adjust evenly
> under the bridge, accounting for different pressure from the breaks
> provided by the plate, and so on.
Imagination, and so on, is a wonderful thing. The results,
unfortunately, aren't necessarily the answer.
>We all know that good string stability
> is not expected as much around the breaks between the plate struts for
> example.
And noting the break% changes in the string scaling at the inadequate
bridge doglegs accounts for a good portion of that without invoking some
mysterious stress effect.
>I wonder if anyone has examined an old soundboard to see
> evidence of more or less stress fatigue at these points. Or the inherent
> dead spots of a soundboard. Sounds like a project for someone with a lot
> more of a scientific vocabulary than myself.
> Bruce P
There are years of discussion on this in the archives.
Ron N
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:57:58 +0100
From: David Boyce <David at piano.plus.com>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Bechstein grand lid hinges
Message-ID: <4CC45786.6050704 at piano.plus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
I fitted new lid hinges to a customer's old 7' Bechtein yesterday. At
some point during a period when the piano was in storage, half of one of
the hinges along with the hinge pin, mysteriously went missing, as did
the pin for the lid prop..
How did I manage the whole thing on my own in the customer's home? I'm
not sure!
Please note that ALL the scratches were pre-existing!
On a future tuning, just for appearance (though you cant really see them
with the lid on the prop), I will probably fill the old screw holes and
try and tidy up the scratches.
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