[pianotech] Ivory Laws

[David Love]

I think the whole thing has gotten off topic and turning into something
quite different than it started out.   In its original form it certainly was
an appropriate topic for the list.   It wasn't originally discussion on
whether one should or should not harvest ivory.   I think most people agree
on that issue.  The issues being discussed were 1.) whether there is any
legal exposure in selling a vintage piano that already has ivory key covers
and 2.) if there is should one be considering taking ivory off of a vintage
piano before selling it.  

 

The answer so far is vague.  While it does appear that there are laws on the
books prohibiting sales of ivory in any form, there are many ivory
"suppliers" who sell pre-banned ivory ,and many items, such as pianos, that
contain ivory.  The state regulators (at least in California, though this is
a federal law) suggest that the it is more a matter of enforcement than a
clear definition of the law.  I've contacted various people involved in this
part of the trade who claim that they are legally allowed to sell the
products that they have.  I don't doubt them since they are people who have
been in the business for some time and seem to have researched this quite
well.  There seems to be a difference in the law as characterized by import
versus possession.  I've note been able to come up with a definitive
conclusion about what should or shouldn't be done and since I don't sell
that many pianos it doesn't really impact me that much.  But because Fish
and Game has conducted a few raids on sellers of ivory artifacts it's worth
considering.  

 

I would be happy to see political/moral/ethical discussion end.  I don't
believe anyone is arguing that turning over a 1920's Steinway with ivory key
covers is immoral.    

 

David Love

www.davidlovepianos.com

 

From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Noah Frere
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:07 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Ivory Laws

 

I'm not sure where to draw the line with appropriate conversation on the
tech-list. Is materials fair game? (no pun intended). I know ethics are part
of our codes. So the ethics of piano materials seems like a fairly important
subject. However, again, I'm not sure this is the place for it or not. If
not here, what list? Is there an ethics email list?

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Dean May <deanmay at pianorebuilders.com>
wrote:

This is really political and heavily one sided. It is only beautifully put
if you agree with the faulty premises, which some on this list to not. Most
of the same arguments could be made against eating meat. Can we lay it to
rest now?

Dean

Dean W May (812) 235-5272 <tel:%28812%29%20235-5272>  voice and text

PianoRebuilders.com (888) DEAN-MAY

Terre Haute IN 47802



-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf

Of Joseph Giandalone
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 9:46 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Ivory Laws



Mark,

You put this beautifully, and I couldn't agree with you more completely !

It always was, at all times in History, WRONG to slaughter these creatures
so that their two front teeth could contribute to minor amusements for
humans. And this is the kind of hubris and arrogance that is destroying our
planet. Ivory is a fetish, and I've called it so in the past (and been
roundly ridiculed in this forum for advocating the "waste" of what ivory has
already been "harvested" - and for ignoring the wonderful laws that provide
for the sale of confiscated poached ivory and use the proceeds to extend
protections against such poaching. HAH.)

The consistent way to advocate for protection of the source animals from
poaching is to reject the fatuous idea that Real Ivory makes a piano in any
way more desirable as an instrument. Or that the Ivory Trade was EVER
anything but a brutish, disgraceful exercise for all concerned in every
segment of it. Seriously: do some reading up on it if you dare; it was, in
its heyday, a massive disgrace to the human race.

Nobody ever asked the elephants if it was OK with them to take their 2 front
teeth and brutally murder them in the bargain. Remember folks: these are
among the most intelligent animals on earth; they are very family-oriented,
and they mourn their dead. I'd like to say to some of the folks on the
"other side" of this issue: a leather-crafting friend of mine tells me that
the human scrotum makes a very fine wallet . . . any of you gents mind if we
help ourselves to a little raw material ??

Joseph Giandalone
Conway, MA


On May 4, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Mark Dierauf wrote:

> Paul -
>
> Of course I realize that you are not advocating the slaughter of elephants
to provide new material for covering piano keys (or any other reason). But
we as piano techs often (virtually always, in my experience) praise this
material for various reasons, and that is the problem. As long as ivory is
prized for whatever reason there will be a market for it and these animals
will be pushed ever closer to extinction. You say near the end of your post
that we should not do anything that encourages the killing of elephants. I
believe that whenever we talk about "a beautiful set of ivories" we are
doing just that, even though that is certainly not our intention. Like it or
not, we are part of the problem.
>
> I used to think that confiscated poached ivory could be sold and the
proceeds used to fund anti-poaching efforts. That was tried, and it only
served to further increase the value of tusks in a part of the world where
money is scarce and life is cheap. More and more I think that it all belongs
in museums only, and that we as a society can either choose to be
inconvenienced by regulation or watch passively as these (and other) animals
disappear forever. Before you (not you specifically, Paul, but anyone
reading this) take issue with my use of the word "inconvenienced" in
speaking of regulations that can often seem heavy-handed, I would refer you
back to my original post - "Tell that to the elephants".
>
> Respectfully,
>
> - Mark
>
> On 5/4/2012 8:32 AM, paul bruesch wrote:
>> Whoa. That photo is repulsive and uncalled for. I am absolutely NOT
suggesting that we should continue to "produce" new ivory. This thread is
about selling a piano with key covers made from animals that have long since
been "harvested". The gist of it is that no one who owns a piano in
California can sell it if it happens to have ivory key covers. Instead, they
need to have those ivory covers removed and replaced with plastic. Do you
know what plastic production looks like? Ulimately, it may not be quite as
hideous as your graphic photo of the slaughtered elephant, but it ain't
pretty either. Who gains anything besides the technician recovering the
keys?
>>
>> I completely agree with the current US ban. We absolutely should not do
anything that encourages further killing of these enormous, beautiful
beasts.
>>
>> I think this post should remove any doubt as to my viewpoint in this
matter. I will not respond to it any more.
>>
>> Note that the use of double-quotes in the first paragraph is to denote
the use of popular euphemisms typically used to soften the tone of this sort
of practice.
>>
>> Paul Bruesch
>> Stillwater, MN
>

 

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