Just what the Dr. ordered, Will! Now making him take his medicine is the hard part! Paul On 5/10/12 2:58 PM, "Encore Pianos" <encorepianos at metrocast.net> wrote: >Well, Duane, I can do 3 pitch raises and a fine tuning aurally in just >about 2 hours, on the occasional piano that needs that much. About an >hour 40 minutes for 2 pr & ft. If the piano is over 50 cents flat, I >will usually schedule a second visit, because it will wander. > >I won't argue that a ETD can calculate a pitch raise and do a more >accurate pitch raise than by our aural means, I have done that with the >machine. No argument there (no need to either). It's very good, but it >is not the Holy Grail. Nothing is. > >BUT, I say BS to your "MIGHT make some MINOR tweaking", after your MINOR >(hmmmm.....) checking. > >Yes, there are some pianos out there where the pitch drops in like it is >going back into a slot, I've tuned some of those both ways. But there >are also plenty of pianos where the pitch will wander up or down in ways >that are not predictable, and will do so no matter which method is used. >I can hear it happen aurally, and quantify it by the machine if I want >to. I make several passes before fine tuning, and I also know some good >ETD tuners who will make 3 passes on some of these beasts because their >ear and the machine tells them that is what it takes to get it right. >Sometimes the piano is 10 cents flat and misbehaves as described, >sometimes it is 60 cents flat and acting this way. > >My guess is that you are doing one pass on just about everything, and >doing little or no checking. If you don't check it again with the >machine, and you don't know what a piano in good tune sounds like, >ignorance is bliss. But, as Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but Verify." >And, ahem, that's why there is an aural part to the tuning test, to help >you keep honest with yourself. I challenge you to do a single pass on >your next few pianos, then write down the cents deviation for each note >in relation to the calculated tuning, and keep those records. You might >actually learn something about your tuning that you didn't know. > >Will Truitt > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On >Behalf Of Duaine Hechler >Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:03 PM >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Subject: Re: [pianotech] Old can of worms (was Re: tunelab vs verituner) > >Not to deliberately belabor this point, but answer me this; > >99.9% of my tunings involve MAJOR pitch raises. With aural tuning ONLY, >how in the "sam hill" can you do a MAJOR pitch raise in less than 2 hours. > >Now let's see - that involves setting the temperament, PRESUMABLY, at the >same time, calculating stretch, tuning each note, tuning the unisons, etc >Oh, yeah, do your "precious" aural tuning checks, but, wait, the piano is >constantly moving because it was so out-of-tune, but some how you are >still supposed to do them, how I will never know. Starting from the >middle, tune up and tune down AND with the piano still moving along the >way. So now you some sort of BASE tuning, so now you have to go back and >"tweak" BUT, again, the piano is still moving, so you have to, maybe, >tweak again and again and again, etc. Have I forgotten anything ? > >Now, with an ETD (like, Cybertuner (because that is what I have)), you >capture the "starting" point of the piano with all the A's; IT calculates >the proper pitch of the note where it is supposed to be - factoring in, >automajically, the stretch and you tune from note 1 to note 88. Now, do >some MINOR checking, which you MIGHT need to make some MINOR tweaking. >And, now you are DONE. > >Stepping back out of your CURRENT life and as a NEW tech coming into the >business, you would pick the ETD route. So did I, like millions of other >techs. > >So there - "put that in you pipe and smoke it" > >Duaine > >On 05/10/2012 07:57 AM, David Renaud wrote: >> I did not at all suggest I had an engineering degree, I have a music >>degree. >> >> I was addressing the comment previously made by someone else >> suggesting that having to take today's tuning Test was like asking to >>take an engineering exam with only a slide rule and pencil. >> >> My hope was to point out that the apology is not good because: >> >> 1)Indeed, you actually can use technology for large parts of the tuning >>exam. >> >> 2) The aural part is primary to demonstrate that a candidate actually >>does know some aural test. >> In this interest, The margins of error are very larg, and this part is >> not to produce a concert level tuning at all, but a minimal standard. >> Most of the people I have seen fail this part knew practically no >> aural checks tests whatsoever. Forget executing tests well ,the problem >>was so many do not have the information at all. It is a test of >>demonstrating a minimal knowledge of aural tests. >> >> 3) the exam process does have a written part before qualifying to take >> the tuning exam. As you suggest should be, is indeed, Questions >>Regarding partial, harmonics, and stretch are part of the written exam. >> >> So my point was only that the analogy with the slide rule is not >> valid. And my discussion was intended to point out that a fair >> comparison would be an exam where the candidate would be Expected at >>some point in the exam to demonstrate some minimal manual mental >>calculations and knowledge without >> referring to the computer/devise. In my opinion the aural component >>of the tuning tests does this minimal >> demonstration of aural testing knowledge for it has generous margins >> of error, and anyone with basic knowledge and practice of a 3 or 4 >> Interval tests can achieve passing at the 80% level. The problem I >> have seen so often in the exam room with the aural part is mostly lack >>of knowledge of any aural tests. It is indeed a demonstration of a >>minimal standard, not concert tuning. >> >> I have mentored enough experienced tuners through assimilating >> basic aural skills to have an opinion. ALL of them say it opened up a >> whole new world to them. All of them appreciated and valued the added >> techniques. You do know that none of the examiners get remuneration >> for the Hundreds of hours they have spent training for and being in >> the exam room? To give that much Free time you have to have a spirit >> that really desires to give back. These people want others to succeed, >>and have put their time and money behind their words giving thousands of >>dollars worth of time because they do care. One CTE I respect very much >>asked me once."if we will not preserve Something of the aural tradition, >>who will? " >> There is value there. There are people that care and give >> there. The aural part Deserves respect. >> >> Cheers >> Dave Renaud >> >> > > >-- >Duaine Hechler >Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ >Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding >Reed Organ Society Member >Florissant, MO 63034 >(314) 838-5587 >dahechler at att.net >www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com >-- >Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years > > > >
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