[pianotech] Cleaning product safety

[Douglas Gregg]

John,
You are exactly right. I can think of no reason ever to use bleach on
or in  pianos-period. It is very corrosive and will rust parts badly.
Also, as you pointed out, it should never be mixed with other
disinfectants or for that matter, anything that has a basic pH
including some soap like Fels naptha  soap. So that includes a lot of
things. My advise- Just don't use it. The classic example of a
disaster  is a housewife using houshold ammonia to clean a toilet and
then adding bleach for good measure. Chloramine gas is released and it
is extremely toxic- the kind of stuff used in chemical warfare in WWI.
So just don't use bleach!!! Leave it for the cloths washing.

So what would I use for cleaning a mouse infested piano. As a
virologist and pathologist working with nasty viruses most of my
career, I would say that there are not many great choices for the
general public. Most disinfectants that will kill viruses ON CONTACT
are too strong and corrosive to use in a piano. Most of them,
including quaternary ammonium compounds are easily inactivated on
contact with organic debris, including mouse feces, hair, lint,
general dirt, and even wood. The good news is that viruses don't
survive long in the environment and they don't jump up at you-you have
to force them into the air. The worst thing to do is to blow out a
piano with high pressure air. If the mice are long gone,  hanta virus
probably is too. Also, the good news is that most liquid detergents do
a good job of cleaning, diluting viruses, if not killing them, and
rinsing  them away without aerosolizing them.
For general use, the Scrubbing Bubbles is a sensible choice. It
contains a solvent that will inactivate enveloped viruses, has
detergent action that will help inactivate non-enveloped viruses, and
is a good cleaning agent. Though the quaternary ammonium products are
of low concentration and will likely loose most of their activity when
they hit the dirty mess inside the bottom of a piano, at least the
dirt will be covered in a wet foam that will capture and soak any
virus laden material and keep it in the liquid form. Then there will
be no aerosolization of virus that you might breath.  It is a good
cleaning agent and that is the first step in disinfection. A second
application with Scrubbing Bubbles to a clean surface should finish
the job.

There are other good disinfectants such as Lysol and Pinesol but the
residual odor may be unpleasant. The same issues apply to these
disinfectants as quaternary ammonium. Again, never follow it with
bleach for good measure.

Try not to take a boogy-man approach when dealing with some possible
virus in some mice feces or urine in a piano. Viruses don't survive
long unprotected or outside of cells. They don't jump. They don't
attack. They are just non-living. non-moving tiny parasites looking
for an opportunity to reach a host cell in your nose or lungs so they
might replicate. So don't force them into the air you breath and DO by
all means wear a decently fitted dust mask-3M preferred. Once wetted
down, viruses can't get to you easily. Wear rubber gloves and mop up
the mess. That's about it. Don't pick your nose.

Just my $.02

Doug Gregg
Classic Piano Doc

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 07:42:44 -0700
From: <johnparham at piano88.com>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 07:42:44 -0700
From: <johnparham at piano88.com>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Cleaning product safety
Message-ID:
       <20120525074244.f1fd8b108a58a93f763c4cd7f53850a9.06fadf2860.wbe at email03.secureserver.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Greg,

Thanks again for expanding these ideas.

I did some additional reading about some of the terms you used in your
email, and it occurs to me that I could very easily create a dangerous
situation in my efforts to clean a piano, or my home. Correct me if the
following summary is incorrect.

Products containing quaternary ammonium such as list A should never be
mixed with products containing sodium hypochlorite (bleach) in list B.
Mixing the two products causes several chemical reactions, eventually
resulting in a poisonous gas called chloramine that is released as a
vapor. Choloramine is so toxic that it can render you unconscious.

List A---Pine-Sol, Fantastik All Purpose Cleaner

List B---Clorox Cleanup with Bleach, Fantastik Spray with Bleach, Soft
Scrub with Bleach

If I wipe down a cabinet or case with Pine-Sol, for example, I should
never chase it with a product with bleach in it, correct? I could see me
making that mistake in my house on any given weekend!

-John Parham


Message-ID:
       <20120525074244.f1fd8b108a58a93f763c4cd7f53850a9.06fadf2860.wbe at email03.secureserver.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Greg,

Thanks again for expanding these ideas.

I did some additional reading about some of the terms you used in your
email, and it occurs to me that I could very easily create a dangerous
situation in my efforts to clean a piano, or my home. Correct me if the
following summary is incorrect.

Products containing quaternary ammonium such as list A should never be
mixed with products containing sodium hypochlorite (bleach) in list B.
Mixing the two products causes several chemical reactions, eventually
resulting in a poisonous gas called chloramine that is released as a
vapor. Choloramine is so toxic that it can render you unconscious.

List A---Pine-Sol, Fantastik All Purpose Cleaner

List B---Clorox Cleanup with Bleach, Fantastik Spray with Bleach, Soft
Scrub with Bleach

If I wipe down a cabinet or case with Pine-Sol, for example, I should
never chase it with a product with bleach in it, correct? I could see me
making that mistake in my house on any given weekend!

-John Parham