[pianotech] Cleaning product safety

[johnparham at piano88.com]

Thank you again, Doug!

-John Parham

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [pianotech] Cleaning product safety
> From: Douglas Gregg <classicpianodoc at gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, May 25, 2012 6:08 pm
> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
> 
> 
> John,
> You are exactly right. I can think of no reason ever to use bleach on
> or in  pianos-period. It is very corrosive and will rust parts badly.
> Also, as you pointed out, it should never be mixed with other
> disinfectants or for that matter, anything that has a basic pH
> including some soap like Fels naptha  soap. So that includes a lot of
> things. My advise- Just don't use it. The classic example of a
> disaster  is a housewife using houshold ammonia to clean a toilet and
> then adding bleach for good measure. Chloramine gas is released and it
> is extremely toxic- the kind of stuff used in chemical warfare in WWI.
> So just don't use bleach!!! Leave it for the cloths washing.
> 
> So what would I use for cleaning a mouse infested piano. As a
> virologist and pathologist working with nasty viruses most of my
> career, I would say that there are not many great choices for the
> general public. Most disinfectants that will kill viruses ON CONTACT
> are too strong and corrosive to use in a piano. Most of them,
> including quaternary ammonium compounds are easily inactivated on
> contact with organic debris, including mouse feces, hair, lint,
> general dirt, and even wood. The good news is that viruses don't
> survive long in the environment and they don't jump up at you-you have
> to force them into the air. The worst thing to do is to blow out a
> piano with high pressure air. If the mice are long gone,  hanta virus
> probably is too. Also, the good news is that most liquid detergents do
> a good job of cleaning, diluting viruses, if not killing them, and
> rinsing  them away without aerosolizing them.
> For general use, the Scrubbing Bubbles is a sensible choice. It
> contains a solvent that will inactivate enveloped viruses, has
> detergent action that will help inactivate non-enveloped viruses, and
> is a good cleaning agent. Though the quaternary ammonium products are
> of low concentration and will likely loose most of their activity when
> they hit the dirty mess inside the bottom of a piano, at least the
> dirt will be covered in a wet foam that will capture and soak any
> virus laden material and keep it in the liquid form. Then there will
> be no aerosolization of virus that you might breath.  It is a good
> cleaning agent and that is the first step in disinfection. A second
> application with Scrubbing Bubbles to a clean surface should finish
> the job.
> 
> There are other good disinfectants such as Lysol and Pinesol but the
> residual odor may be unpleasant. The same issues apply to these
> disinfectants as quaternary ammonium. Again, never follow it with
> bleach for good measure.
> 
> Try not to take a boogy-man approach when dealing with some possible
> virus in some mice feces or urine in a piano. Viruses don't survive
> long unprotected or outside of cells. They don't jump. They don't
> attack. They are just non-living. non-moving tiny parasites looking
> for an opportunity to reach a host cell in your nose or lungs so they
> might replicate. So don't force them into the air you breath and DO by
> all means wear a decently fitted dust mask-3M preferred. Once wetted
> down, viruses can't get to you easily. Wear rubber gloves and mop up
> the mess. That's about it. Don't pick your nose.
> 
> Just my $.02
> 
> Doug Gregg
> Classic Piano Doc
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 07:42:44 -0700
> From: <johnparham at piano88.com>
> To: pianotech at ptg.org
> Subject: [pianotech] Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 07:42:44 -0700
> From: <johnparham at piano88.com>
> To: pianotech at ptg.org
> Subject: [pianotech] Cleaning product safety
> Message-ID:
>        <20120525074244.f1fd8b108a58a93f763c4cd7f53850a9.06fadf2860.wbe at email03.secureserver.net>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Thanks again for expanding these ideas.
> 
> I did some additional reading about some of the terms you used in your
> email, and it occurs to me that I could very easily create a dangerous
> situation in my efforts to clean a piano, or my home. Correct me if the
> following summary is incorrect.
> 
> Products containing quaternary ammonium such as list A should never be
> mixed with products containing sodium hypochlorite (bleach) in list B.
> Mixing the two products causes several chemical reactions, eventually
> resulting in a poisonous gas called chloramine that is released as a
> vapor. Choloramine is so toxic that it can render you unconscious.
> 
> List A---Pine-Sol, Fantastik All Purpose Cleaner
> 
> List B---Clorox Cleanup with Bleach, Fantastik Spray with Bleach, Soft
> Scrub with Bleach
> 
> If I wipe down a cabinet or case with Pine-Sol, for example, I should
> never chase it with a product with bleach in it, correct? I could see me
> making that mistake in my house on any given weekend!
> 
> -John Parham
> 
> 
> Message-ID:
>        <20120525074244.f1fd8b108a58a93f763c4cd7f53850a9.06fadf2860.wbe at email03.secureserver.net>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Thanks again for expanding these ideas.
> 
> I did some additional reading about some of the terms you used in your
> email, and it occurs to me that I could very easily create a dangerous
> situation in my efforts to clean a piano, or my home. Correct me if the
> following summary is incorrect.
> 
> Products containing quaternary ammonium such as list A should never be
> mixed with products containing sodium hypochlorite (bleach) in list B.
> Mixing the two products causes several chemical reactions, eventually
> resulting in a poisonous gas called chloramine that is released as a
> vapor. Choloramine is so toxic that it can render you unconscious.
> 
> List A---Pine-Sol, Fantastik All Purpose Cleaner
> 
> List B---Clorox Cleanup with Bleach, Fantastik Spray with Bleach, Soft
> Scrub with Bleach
> 
> If I wipe down a cabinet or case with Pine-Sol, for example, I should
> never chase it with a product with bleach in it, correct? I could see me
> making that mistake in my house on any given weekend!
> 
> -John Parham