Jim.. reading through some of these posts... I think you should use your Stanwood abilities to check out exactly what the situation is on a few of these before getting yourself stuck in a mire. Perhaps I misunderstand here... but I see a situation looming whereby you find youself repinning the lot... increasing DW by 10 + grams.... forcing a new weigh off involving setting new Strike Weights and Front Weights... If you end up in that position.. there is no way Steinway is going to go along with paying for it..... to say the least. If the centers are loose... then they are. If the factory did the weighoff with like 0 grams friction... then its their job to take responsibility for the result. yes ?? RicB > Jim Busby wrote: > > David, > > > > You may be right about the capstans and knuckles, but once again it > means changing a new instrument x 8. Eric Schandall is coming out next > week and I’ll push him hard on this. Let’s see what he says. I was > told by “a competitor” that concert artists will never like them as > is, but if this is what Steinway C & A is doing I can’t really buy > that either. > > > > As far as side play goes they really do seem tight. (no excess > sideplay) But the things swing all day long! If this indeed works, > then all the PTG literature, articles, etc. about friction are in > question. Or maybe there really are two types of pianos; S & S, and > everyone else. > > > > > > Jim Busby > > -----Original Message----- > From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of > David Love > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:04 PM > To: College and University Technicians > Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > > > > Jim: > > > > At 70 grams (though you didn't mention where that was), > > > > Random samples generally in the middle. > > > > achieving an acceptable touchweight by reducing hammer weight and > adding key weight will not likely do it without other negative > consequences. Assuming you are at 70 grams in the middle, that would > mean adding one full lead to the middle of the key (net about 6-7 > grams) and taking 2 grams off the hammer weight to get you between 50 > and 55. While I don't have enough data to say for sure, it looks like > a poorly located capstan, too short a knuckle dimension or both. I > like friction to measure out around 14 or 15 grams in the bass down to > about 9 or 10 grams in the treble, depending on hammer weight. That > implies some friction in the flange. I don't see how 27 swings can > not involve some sideplay. > > > > David Love > > davidlovepianos@earthlink.net > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim Busby > > To: College and University Technicians > > Sent: 9/27/2003 12:50:35 PM > > Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > > > > Thanks Ric. > > > > Steinway’s standard used to be “less than 4 grams” but seems > to have changed. Now it’s not one of grams or swings but “as > close to zero friction as possible with no side play.” This > seems to be a recent change and I was told that Steinway has > some kind of new system to achieve this. > > > > I did repin a few and it regulates well, but DW is now about > 70. Changing hammer weight (strike weight) and adjusting > front weight, etc. will bring it to what I want, but then > I’ve changed their design and essentially voided warranty. > > > > You’re right about sound. It does make a difference, and > their way seems to sound great. It just seems weird, and > against what I’ve heard for years. > > > > I’ll try it. I’m fairly opened minded. > > > > Thanks again, > > Jim Busby > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On > Behalf Of Richard Brekne > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:28 PM > To: College and University Technicians > Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > > > > > > Jim Busby wrote: > > > List, > > > > I am NOT bashing here...I love Steinways, but I have a > > dilemma. (BTW, I > > just finished prepping and tuning 12 "out of the box" > > 1098's and they > > are indeed wonderful instruments! None of the former > > problems.) > > (Hurray!) > > > > Here is a new question concerning pinning on the 8 new > > grands I have. (2 > > D's, 3 B's, 2 M's, and an S.) Hammer flange pinning is > > around 1-2 grams! > > (From 20 to 37 swings) I was ready to repin, since they > > simply don't > > check without roughing the tails (which I believe > > shouldn't be the > > solution) Steinway says that they have a new flange design > > to try to > > "totally", as far as possible, reduce friction there. They > > advertise it > > as "permafree" (scary) because of the Teflon impregnated > > into the > > bushing cloth. They say that as long as there is no side > > play 37 swings > > is OK. But is it??? > > > > > Hmm... assuming the hammers follow a solid path towards the > string, even in hard play... it should be ok.... aside from > the general discussion about whether or not a certain amount > of friction is a good thing. That said... seems like an > awwwwwfull lot of swings... 25 +.... hard to imagine thats > not because of overly loose pins. I get quite an improvement > with useing teflon powder in bushings... and have > experienced solid pinning at 12 swings or so on occasion... > but thats not any where near what you are describing. > > > You can make the action work by making sure rep. spring is > not too > strong and by periodically roughing the tails, but > conventional wisdom > says we need proper friction in the right places to make an > action feel > and work correctly. Right?? Any thoughts on this? > > I like a certain amount of friction... 10 grams or so seems > very comfortable... but then I'm rather conservative with > actions. Friction can serve as a brake... keeps the fly away > hammer syndrom from getting to carried away. Tho > admitedly... my call on this is pretty subjective in nature. > > > > Since they are under warranty I will do as I was taught at > Steinway, but > my gut feeling is to repin the rail, lighten the hammers, > etc. to > achieve proper touchweight, and spend the next ten years > working on > pianos that feel "right" to me. > > Would be interested in hearing a follow up on these > <<permafree>> bushings... what you think of them as you go > through changing and servicing them over the next few > months. > > I've consulted with 2 other techs who are top notch by any > standard and > they totally agree with me. However, two Steinway techs say > their system > works. How do I justify the two seemingly opposing systems > and make the > pianos work to my standards without bucking Steinway? Have > any of you > faced this yet? > > > Steinways official line is that these should exhibit 10 - 35 > swings ??... let them go for a while if that be... and see > how well they perform... change one or two if you think its > the right thing to do and compare. Loose pins cause sloppy > sound... weak and falsy... you know it when you hear it. > > > Thanks, > Jim Busby RPT > BYU > > > -- > Richard Brekne > RPT, N.P.T.F. > UiB, Bergen, Norway > mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no > http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html > http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html > -- Richard Brekne RPT, N.P.T.F. UiB, Bergen, Norway mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html
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