This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
David,
=20
You may be right about the capstans and knuckles, but once again it
means changing a new instrument x 8. Eric Schandall is coming out next
week and I'll push him hard on this. Let's see what he says. I was told
by "a competitor" that concert artists will never like them as is, but
if this is what Steinway C & A is doing I can't really buy that either.=20
=20
As far as side play goes they really do seem tight. (no excess sideplay)
But the things swing all day long! If this indeed works, then all the
PTG literature, articles, etc. about friction are in question. Or maybe
there really are two types of pianos; S & S, and everyone else.
=20
=20
Jim Busby
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of
David Love
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:04 PM
To: College and University Technicians
Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
=20
Jim:
=20
At 70 grams (though you didn't mention where that was),=20
=20
Random samples generally in the middle.
=20
achieving an acceptable touchweight by reducing hammer weight and
adding key weight will not likely do it without other negative
consequences. Assuming you are at 70 grams in the middle, that would
mean adding one full lead to the middle of the key (net about 6-7 grams)
and taking 2 grams off the hammer weight to get you between 50 and 55.
While I don't have enough data to say for sure, it looks like a poorly
located capstan, too short a knuckle dimension or both. I like
friction to measure out around 14 or 15 grams in the bass down to about
9 or 10 grams in the treble, depending on hammer weight. That implies
some friction in the flange. I don't see how 27 swings can not involve
some sideplay. =20
=20
David Love
davidlovepianos@earthlink.net
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jim Busby <mailto:jim_busby@byu.edu> =20
To: College and University Technicians <mailto:caut@ptg.org>=20
Sent: 9/27/2003 12:50:35 PM=20
Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
=20
Thanks Ric.
=20
Steinway's standard used to be "less than 4 grams" but seems to
have changed. Now it's not one of grams or swings but "as close to zero
friction as possible with no side play." This seems to be a recent
change and I was told that Steinway has some kind of new system to
achieve this.=20
=20
I did repin a few and it regulates well, but DW is now about 70.
Changing hammer weight (strike weight) and adjusting front weight, etc.
will bring it to what I want, but then I've changed their design and
essentially voided warranty.=20
=20
You're right about sound. It does make a difference, and their
way seems to sound great. It just seems weird, and against what I've
heard for years.
=20
I'll try it. I'm fairly opened minded.
=20
Thanks again,
Jim Busby
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of Richard Brekne
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:28 PM
To: College and University Technicians
Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
=20
=20
Jim Busby wrote:=20
List,=20
I am NOT bashing here...I love Steinways, but I have a
dilemma. (BTW, I=20
just finished prepping and tuning 12 "out of the box"
1098's and they=20
are indeed wonderful instruments! None of the former
problems.)=20
(Hurray!)=20
Here is a new question concerning pinning on the 8 new
grands I have. (2=20
D's, 3 B's, 2 M's, and an S.) Hammer flange pinning is
around 1-2 grams!=20
(From 20 to 37 swings) I was ready to repin, since they
simply don't=20
check without roughing the tails (which I believe
shouldn't be the=20
solution) Steinway says that they have a new flange
design to try to=20
"totally", as far as possible, reduce friction there.
They advertise it=20
as "permafree" (scary) because of the Teflon impregnated
into the=20
bushing cloth. They say that as long as there is no side
play 37 swings=20
is OK. But is it???=20
=20
Hmm... assuming the hammers follow a solid path towards the
string, even in hard play... it should be ok.... aside from the general
discussion about whether or not a certain amount of friction is a good
thing. That said... seems like an awwwwwfull lot of swings... 25 +....
hard to imagine thats not because of overly loose pins. I get quite an
improvement with useing teflon powder in bushings... and have
experienced solid pinning at 12 swings or so on occasion... but thats
not any where near what you are describing.=20
=20
=09
You can make the action work by making sure rep. spring is not
too=20
strong and by periodically roughing the tails, but conventional
wisdom=20
says we need proper friction in the right places to make an
action feel=20
and work correctly. Right?? Any thoughts on this?
I like a certain amount of friction... 10 grams or so seems very
comfortable... but then I'm rather conservative with actions. Friction
can serve as a brake... keeps the fly away hammer syndrom from getting
to carried away. Tho admitedly... my call on this is pretty subjective
in nature.=20
=20
=09
Since they are under warranty I will do as I was taught at
Steinway, but=20
my gut feeling is to repin the rail, lighten the hammers, etc.
to=20
achieve proper touchweight, and spend the next ten years working
on=20
pianos that feel "right" to me.
Would be interested in hearing a follow up on these
<<permafree>> bushings... what you think of them as you go through
changing and servicing them over the next few months.=20
=09
I've consulted with 2 other techs who are top notch by any
standard and=20
they totally agree with me. However, two Steinway techs say
their system=20
works. How do I justify the two seemingly opposing systems and
make the=20
pianos work to my standards without bucking Steinway? Have any
of you=20
faced this yet?=20
=20
Steinways official line is that these should exhibit 10 - 35
swings ??... let them go for a while if that be... and see how well they
perform... change one or two if you think its the right thing to do and
compare. Loose pins cause sloppy sound... weak and falsy... you know it
when you hear it.=20
=20
=09
Thanks,=20
Jim Busby RPT=20
BYU=20
<https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives> =20
--=20
Richard Brekne=20
RPT, N.P.T.F.=20
UiB, Bergen, Norway=20
mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no=20
http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html=20
http://www.hf.uib.no/grieg/personer/cv_RB.html=20
=20
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/f5/60/06/a6/attachment.htm
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC