[CAUT] Miking pianos

[Alan McCoy]

Yes a "How to Mix and Mic a piano, for fun and profit."

I'd love to sit in on that one. I think there would be a lot of interest in
that Keith.

Alan


> From: Keith Kopp <keith_kopp@byu.edu>
> Reply-To: "College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>" <caut@ptg.org>
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 11:42:37 -0700
> To: "College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>" <caut@ptg.org>
> Conversation: [CAUT] Miking pianos
> Subject: RE: [CAUT] Miking pianos
> 
> Before my life as a piano technician I did a fair amount of sound
> reinforcement work. One of my sons is now full time in this profession
> and travels coast to coast. His work includes live application such as
> classical, jazz, country and corporate sound jobs. (By the way, each of
> those applications may require a different sound. Have you notice that a
> high end home sound system has different equalization settings for
> different styles of music that you listen to?) At least once a month I
> set down with him to get updated on all the newest toys and techniques.
> I totally agree with the things that have been said by Jeff. I have a
> few additional observations. Besides placement you also need to be aware
> that the way the mic is positioned makes a big difference. The sound
> coming into the side is different from the sound coming straight in. The
> distance between multiple mics changes the pick-up pattern and
> characteristics. The make and model is not the whole answer. (Again your
> individual tastes might drive you decision about what mic to use. I was
> in a recording studio and was shown a software program that would change
> how the piano sounded if recorded with different mics.) A good
> technician can get a pretty good sound out of a lesser expensive mic
> while a bad technicians can get a real bad sound out of a good mic. I
> did a piano miking class at a regional conference. I used several mic
> recordings in various locations in the piano. Without revealing the mic
> types or makes (some were less than $100, other over $500) or location I
> played the sample recordings back and ask the participant to say which
> they thought was the best sound. The results were quite interesting. To
> confirm what Jeff has said there was not a for sure conclusion.
> 
> The best advise I heard was from an award winning recording engineer was
> to put your ear up to what ever you are working with. When you find the
> sound you want, put the mic there. The means almost crawling in, out and
> around the piano and listening at the spot you think might be best. A
> variation is to have someone play the piano you are working with and
> have someone move the mic around inside and out, above and below, lid
> down and lid up while you listen out front in the hall. When find the
> sweet spot you want, mic it. Be aware the hall will also have sweet
> spot. Just because it sounds good in seat K45 it doesn't mean it will be
> the same in seat K47. And the hall will change when people fill the
> seats, the temperature changes and other conditions vary. The same
> things that affect the piano's natural sound will also change the halls
> sound.
> 
> Keep in mind the sound man has at his finger tips a verity of toys to
> play with that will undo all you have done to make the piano sound
> right. For starters, he has equalizers the can change the tone at every
> third octave of the pianos sound. On new digital mixers he can do that
> with every single mic. He can change the fundamental and partials and he
> can do it with the twist of a knob without a needle!
> 
> Thanks Jeff for saving me from having to go into details. You covered a
> lot of ground. There are no simple answers. Sound reinforcement is as
> complicated as piano technology. A piano technician is a lucky man
> indeed when there is a good sound technician at the mixing board taking
> care of your piano.
> 
> I have thought it would be great to have a "how to mic a piano" class
> taught at annual convention.
> 
> Keith Kopp,
> Brigham Young University
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of
> Jeff Tanner
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:29 AM
> To: College and University Technicians
> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Miking pianos
> 
> 
> On Nov 30, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Alan McCoy wrote:
>>  Is there anyone who has some expertise in setting up pianos for
>> concert amplification? What I'm looking for is some nitty gritty
>> details so
>> if need be I can do it myself.
>> 
>> Like I said, the last straw!
>> 
> 
> I forwarded your question to our recording engineer.  Though very
> much a novice (particularly in regard to high end equipment), this
> subject is a bit of a hobby of mine, and I started to post my own
> ideas, but decided to wait until I got his response.  Turns out, we
> had very similar ideas.  After his comments (between the quotation
> marks), I will paste what I'd written.
> 
> "If you ask 50 engineers how to mike a piano, you'll get at least 493
> answers!
> 
> In live amplification situations, everything is a compromise.  The
> piano doesn't develop its natural, full, blended sound until you are
> a few feet away.Unfortunately, that is a worthless location with
> respect to gain before feedback (GBF).  In order to actually amplify
> the piano without feedback or too much bleed from other instruments,
> the mics need to be close, often extremely close.  This is affected
> by sooooooo many variables, from the piano and its setup, the mic
> choice and its directional pattern, mic placement, position of lid,
> how much reinforcement is needed, the volume of the piano and other
> instruments, PA and monitor location and level, hall acoustics, etc.
> 
> So the engineer has to pick which portion of the sound he wants to
> amplify, he can't get them all.  It is common to choose the bright
> attack portion of the sound near the hammers, since this will cut
> thru a mix.  A little of it in the PA system will give the impression
> of piano without muddying up everything else.  This is especially
> common in big band, where you need lots of amplification to compete.
> It is a choice between hearing an unnatural 'banjo' piano sound, or
> having a natural piano sound and not hearing it at all!
> 
> (BTW, It may be that the 'banjo' sound came from a piano pickup,
> rather than microphones.  These are great for GBF, but are very
> unnatural sounding.)
> 
> Suggestions for more natural sound:
> -Get the piano to be heard more acoustically by positioning, opening
> the lid, and having everyone else play less
> -reduce bleed into piano by placement on stage, possible use of
> gobos, and having everyone else play less
> -use at least 2 high quality directional condenser mics, placed
> behind and above the hammers, facing toward the hammers.  Maybe a
> foot above the strings and a foot back.  Spaced to split the range of
> the piano into thirds.
> -carefully EQ piano mics for natural sound and nearby monitors for
> maximum GBF
> -pray
> 
> There is no formula.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> JF"
> 
> This was my post:
> 
> All kinds of sounds are available through micing, and the sound you
> get totally depends on placement.  But mic placement for
> amplification is a completely different animal from that of recording
> because of the feedback factor.   I tuned for Livingston Taylor
> several years ago and he was quite adamant about a three mic
> placement very near the strings.  Same for Jim Brickman, and seems
> like Bette Midler's band used a similar arrangement.  One near the
> treble dampers, one near the bass dampers, and the third further back
> in the midrange.  I recently tuned an S&S B (on the bright side) for
> a Gaither gospel concert in a large venue, but they hadn't placed the
> mics before I left.  I was very curious how that was going to turn out.
> 
> These were studio mics, but I did a "just for fun" recording of a
> buddy with his accompanist on her S&S B at her home a few years back
> with a Shure SM 58 vocal mics and that sound turned out surprisingly
> full.  Not close micing, mind you, but not out past the rim either,
> and again, this was a recording situation.  It can be done, but your
> sound engineer MUST have an ear for piano.
> 
> I don't know who it was who got it started a few years ago that the
> "best" way to mic a piano was from underneath, but I wish that would
> have never happened.  A lot of church music directors heard that myth
> and decided it was law.  That mic placement produces a very dark,
> muffled sound every time I've ever heard it - probably because
> they're using a cheap mic and don't have an ear for using an EQ, but
> I've never really liked that sound at all.  That placement may work
> ok for some recording situations, but it is horrible for
> amplification IMO.
> 
> Another part of it can be where you're sitting in relation to the
> directional throw of the pa speakers.  What can sound very full at
> the mixing board position can sound completely strange in other parts
> of the room. The type of amplification and speakers used will also
> put limitations on how the piano can be EQ'd.  The room itself, other
> instrumentation, there are just so many factors...
> 
> Jeff Tanner
> 
> 
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