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Bill,
I didn't know you were working on an 1830s/or earlier instrument.
You'll have to have some
downbearing I'd think to get a decent approximation of a new 1830s
Erard. Perhaps you could
measure some modern Graf reproductions to see. Not that they are the
same as Erards. I'm
not sure how much information is availble on Erard scales, hammers, and
all that. If your
instrument is nearly intact, then all you have to do is a lot of
measuring and weighing. That
would put you in the ball park. Hopefully you can visit the Met Museum
in NYC and have a look
if your write the curator. You might want to consult with Stephen
Burkett, or Margret Hood
while you're at it. They may have some figures for you.
Does an 1830s Erard have buckskin covered hammers?
Or were you talking about the Steinway type II??...I think you still
need enough downbearing, and you
should be able to get the info on that from the Steinway factory. Their
books go way, way back.
A nice letter usually produces positive results. I'm not sure if their
"historian" is still there. I
forget his name, now. A nice fellow.
Yes, no doubt Liszt did prefer the Erards of the 1820s ~IN~ the 1820s.
Probably it was the more robust of
all the instruments available to him.
But, can you honestly think that when Liszt was playing or hearing his
pupils play his own
music on his 1870s/80s Boesendorfers (in Budapest), or his Bechstein
(in Weimar) or his huge Chickering of 1867 (in Budapest)or his
Steinway he thought to himself "hmmm....this is not the sound world I
thought of when composing these pieces...this is all wrong....they have
to try an 1826 Erard to get the idea of how my music goes and what it
means....they are really missing out here, etc..."?
This past summer I toured w/a forte-pianist as technician for a week.
Her instrument was more of
the ca 1800 Mozart - Hadyn type...a Stein replica. I don't remember the
compass. I must say it was nice (but for the treble)....buckskin hammers
make a wonderful sound on these light strung near-harpsichord-weight
instruments.
The action is so light you can play fast without impediment. But the
tone is rather small. It was double strung and nice to tune. Sustain in
the treble is very short, and not what I'd call an asset.
A Liszt piece would be easy on something like this.
If an 1830s Erard is as light but superior treble, then I can see how
it might be worth
trying some Liszt on for the "experience".
The basses on all these pianos I've listened to prior to the 1850s are
rather thin or light or shallow compared to today's or even to an 1850s
piano. This might change the voicing relationships in the Transcendental
Etudes or make a Hungarian Rhapsody more Cembolom-like.
The pianist I toured with is looking for an Erard from mid 1820s-35 I
think she said. I can
pass along any info anyone has about finding one to restore. I believe
she said someone donated
one to them, but it was not early enough, and needs a complete
restoration. She's trying to
raise some money for that.
One of the links I put on my original post will take you to an article
about an original Liszt owned Erard
in the Met Museum (NYC)...but I don't think any recordings of it are
available.
I have the recordings w/Emaual AX of Chopin on an Erard....(the piano
is from 1851; still too new) ...this piano is very modern in sound to my
ears....I also did not hear any great revelations
(from the performer, or the piano) to convince me of the need to
perform Chopin (or Liszt) for
that matter on an antique piano or a modern reproduction from this
period.
Sadly, I don't think anyone is going to reproduce an 1830 Erard/or
Pleyel. We really don't know what they sounded like new, do we?
We do have reproductions of pianos that Schumann would have played,
the Graf, and can even hear the difference between an antique and
reproduction.
Yes, my antique keyboard loving friends, there is a CD recorded on
Clara Schumanns Hammer-Flugel!
(And I have it).... These reproductions are very pricey, as much as
a modern grand. One had better be very serious about playing if they
are thinking of getting such an instrument. This is hardly the casual
instrument we all meet when tuning away from the academy.
I do feel that the pianos Schumann would have used, the Viennese
pianos, and those earlier Broadwoods Beethoven used, all present a very
big contrast and are revelatory more so than the "modern" sounds of an
1851 Erard for example.
You can play Liszt on one of these, and get the idea of what Liszt
sounded like when playing
a Graf....and he would have probably (possibly) played Clara's as would
have Brahms, and
other illustrious musicians (Joachim et al).
The CD I have of pianos from 1800 to 1830s shows a consistency in that
the instruments though made
by different makers are incredibly sweet. They have charm. Some have
better trebles than others. The later in the 1800s you get, the closer
the sound is to a modern grand. By 1851(as the Ax recording shows), the
piano approaches modern sounds, and perhaps when new, this piano was
even more modern sounding.
Liszt did have in his collection of instruments a Broadwood that once
belonged to Beethoven. Liszt would
have toured England using Broadwoods. (I don't think he was too happy
with them.)Perhaps that would be instructive. YOu could hear what
Liszt's music would have sounded like in England at the time.
Last year there was another rebuilt "restored" Erard concert grand on
Pianomart for about $10-12K down south somewhere, it might still be on
there. [I wonder if the rebuilder put in genuine Abel- Erard hammers
from the factory, or if they used "Royal George" Erard hammers?] This
piano would have been
too "new" for "authentic Liszt", not being from the 1830s or earlier.
All kidding aside, I would like to have an Erard from the 1830s if it
has a good sustain and good treble. (Whatever that means.) Only a
reproduction, or perhaps one with a new board and "some" downbearing
will give us an approximation of those old days. A board that old would
need to be examine
very carfully.
What the tone of an 1828 Erard was like I don't know yet. Was it as
robust as the 1859 or 1878 instrument?
I'm pretty sure it was sweeter than a modern piano, though.
We can hear the consistency in the Steinway pianos from 1859 to the
present. Was it the same with
Erard?
A much nicer Erard recording can be heard on the Opal CD of Frances
Plante( 1839-1934)... who as you
all know counted Liszt among his friends. This Erard, though, sounds
pretty much like a modern concert grand ( because ha,ha....it is!!!).
As you know so many of Chopin's works were composed on a "cottage"
piano in
Majorca...so do you have to go there and play one of these ( a new
repro, ofcourse) to "get into" his "sound world"?
I think there are intellecutuals out there, and then there are
"intellectuatuals" out there....these are
the same people who are stopping spelling bees because they are adverse
to the "No Child Left Behind"
law...and should be listened to.
As CAUT,though, we are probably caught up in tuning modern pianos, and
these excursions to the past
however interesting will not change our present preference for the
modern grand in the music
of Liszt, Chopin or Brahms.
Best of luck with your antique projects....hope it comes out to your
liking.
Richard
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:39:18 -0500
From: Bdshull@aol.com
To: caut@ptg.org (College and University Technicians)
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Liszt, historical pianos et. al.disccusion and
links
(long)
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Hi, Richard,
Thanks for you incredibly entertaining post!
While Liszt did endorse, own and play a multitude of pianos throughout
his life, the piano of choice during his "recitalizing" and composing
years was the Erard. His "sound world" as a pianist and composer was
informed by all the brands he came into contact with (and there was a
great variety in the first half of the nineteenth century). But since
the Erard was his preferred instrument through the early 50's, it was
his primary point of reference.
This is why I believe in the importance of replicating the Erard,
preferably an instrument similar to the one donated by our colleague
David Moore (who died in a plane crash a couple years ago) to the
National Music Museum:
NMM 5984. Grand piano by Erard, Paris, 1849. AAA-a4 (7 octaves). Two
pedals: una corda, dampers. Gift of David Moore, Jacksonville, Texas,
1996.
David made sure to tell me that he had restrung and rehammered this
piano, and that it was no longer original. But this 1849 Erard was the
largest compass Erard built to date, one of the first 85 note pianos
built. It can accomodate all of Liszt's literature, while faithfully
representing his earlier material too, since the design remained similar
for the 25 years leading up to 1849.
I don't know what the treble will sound like on a replica Erard, but I
would love to know. Your very entertaining description of the Erard in
the recording isn't the reaction of everyone (my musicology professor
loved the sound of the Erard restored by David Winston in the recent
Emmanuel Ax Chopin recordings - but he has a more open mind than most...
:)
I still hold out hope we will get more from the treble when the belly
is new and the string is deflected (I haven't found any documentation
for crown or bearing for Erard, but I haven't looked too hard, and would
love to find it), but it seems obvious Erard would have deflected the
string some, and a new belly must sound different than an old one in the
treble, no?
Loved your post...!
Bill
>As far as Liszt goes, he owned at one time or another many brands of
>pianos. He wrote
>many endorsements on their worth, among them:
>Chickering,Bosendorfer,Erard,Bechstein,Steinway, Ibach.
>Perhaps the upright at Weimar.is an Ibach. There are several accounts
>in various books of how
>he taught and on what pianos he played. Fascinating reading.
>
>His last pianos at Weimar were an upright, and a Bechstein concerrt
>grand. He played the upright to demonstrate on, and his pupils
performed
>on the Bechstein. There are some photos that
>can be seen of him seated at the upright. Perhaps the Decca
recordings
>of Jorge Bolet on Bechstein
>concert grands give you some idea, and then, perhaps not.
>
>Please don't ask me to document everything...I'm already staying
>overtime ....I'm not goint
>to research all this again. It is in the books on Liszt for you to
>read.
>
>Liszt at the upright:
>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/joel.puissant/perse/liszt.html
>
>http://www.freud.org.uk/Theory5.html
>
>http://www.mycomposers.co.uk/?page=composer&surname=Liszt
>
>http://www.classical.net/lps/images/big/lon-liszt.jpg
>
>the early square piano (can you imagine???!!!)...
>http://www.arts.arizona.edu/mus330b/images/liszt-02.jpg
>
>perhpas you'll want to look at:
>
>1860 Steinway (like my friend's)...
>
>http://www.liszt.it/steinwaynew.htm
>
>http://www.periodpiano.com/Stock/default.htm
>
>Liszt's Erard
>http://www.metmuseum.org/news/newspressrelease.asp?PressReleaseId=%7B98ED1CDA-5015-11D5-93F5-00902786BF44%7D
>
>sorry for thils windy post...
>
>Richard
>
>
>
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