Hi, Richard, No, I'm not working on an 1830's or earlier instrument (though I do have an 1836 Erard upright with no metal reinforcement, completely unplayable...and very pretty...) Just pointing out that the Erard from the mid-1820's on through the late 19th century was a remarkably similar instrument. The compass expanded, and a second generation repetition action was used halfway through the century. The damper action remained under the strings, I believe the first damper action widely used which quickly suppressed sustain. As far as a cast iron plate, none was ever used until about 1900, instead the Erard retained the hitch pin plate/iron bars with flanges at the pinblock. However, I believe that sometime in the 1860s Erard began using cast steel wire instead of iron wire. Maybe mixed the wire and still used iron in the top, or not, I hope to know at some point. You mentioned Stephen Birkett, who I first got to know on the Pianotech list 5 years ago because of our mutual interest in the mid-19th century piano, except that Stephen is in a better position to build a replica someday, especially if someone would throw $100k at him to do it (my figure, don't know what his would be). I think he owns an 85 note Erard which could make an excellent pattern. He might be watching us on this list....Stephen, I'd love to know how the Erard project might be coming along, as well as the Boissolet (Liszt toured with a Boissolet in 1844-5) "My" Erard (shared with my former musicology professor) is an 80 note instrument (C to G). But the action is original, very clean and quite unworn. Hammers are felt, but with several layers of buckskin and felt underneath. Original wire, none broken, but the bass string wrapping has disintegrated. Bass strings are definitely a Pure Sound candidate, possibly the entire piano. Has the typical fatal pinblock failures, which I will first attempt to repair with epoxy (others have succeeded with this approach). There are a lot of Erards around still. But the 85 note with iron wire would provide a good basis for a replica covering several decades of Erards. As far as its usefulness to musical study, well, some of that is obviously subjective. As the piano professor at one of my past schools was quoted ot have said, "I'll never let one of those old pianos in THIS school." In the right context (say, an academic symposium) even she would probably acknowledge the musicological value of period instruments, but she didn't have to like them. Whereas some of us might not only see the value, but also enjoy the period esthetic and seek to find and discover what we haven't yet heard (as in the need for a replica Erard). I don't consider the Erard sound particularly modern, it retains much more registration color difference. I am expecting a replica to have a sweet but somewhat more powerful sound than the Graf you described, with more sustain and power than the original Erards, less of that "woody" sound; but also not like the modern piano due to the iron wire. Liszt's reasons for choosing the Erard (power, clarity) should be sufficient for some to want to rediscover the sound. Yes, Liszt probably played some Broadwoods in England, along with his preferred Erards (there WAS a London Erard factory) and whatever else he found. Alan Walker writes that "in Ireland, at the little market town of Clonmel, Liszt played on a small Tompkinson upright, which rattled and shook as he performed." Franz Liszt, vol. 1 p. 286. So his "sound world" varied considerably.... No, I don't think we should impose on Liszt our modern ideas of period performance, insisting that once he had a big modern piano he would want to keep his 1823 Erard - even though the Met Museum Liszt Erard is an 1860's piano; the experience was too recent, and the evolution of the piano too rapid, for such thoughts. But those who are interested can find a interpretive goldmine. Bill In a message dated 2/17/2005 5:17:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Richard Adkins" <RADKINS@coe.edu> writes: >Bill, > >I didn't know you were working on an 1830s/or earlier instrument. >You'll have to have some >downbearing I'd think to get a decent approximation of a new 1830s >Erard. Perhaps you could >measure some modern Graf reproductions to see. Not that they are the >same as Erards. I'm >not sure how much information is availble on Erard scales, hammers, and >all that. If your >instrument is nearly intact, then all you have to do is a lot of >measuring and weighing. That >would put you in the ball park. Hopefully you can visit the Met Museum >in NYC and have a look >if your write the curator. You might want to consult with Stephen >Burkett, or Margret Hood >while you're at it. They may have some figures for you. > >Does an 1830s Erard have buckskin covered hammers? > >Or were you talking about the Steinway type II??...I think you still >need enough downbearing, and you >should be able to get the info on that from the Steinway factory. Their >books go way, way back. >A nice letter usually produces positive results. I'm not sure if their >"historian" is still there. I >forget his name, now. A nice fellow. > > >Yes, no doubt Liszt did prefer the Erards of the 1820s ~IN~ the 1820s. >Probably it was the more robust of >all the instruments available to him. > >But, can you honestly think that when Liszt was playing or hearing his >pupils play his own >music on his 1870s/80s Boesendorfers (in Budapest), or his Bechstein >(in Weimar) or his huge Chickering of 1867 (in Budapest)or his >Steinway he thought to himself "hmmm....this is not the sound world I >thought of when composing these pieces...this is all wrong....they have >to try an 1826 Erard to get the idea of how my music goes and what it >means....they are really missing out here, etc..."? > > >This past summer I toured w/a forte-pianist as technician for a week. >Her instrument was more of >the ca 1800 Mozart - Hadyn type...a Stein replica. I don't remember the >compass. I must say it was nice (but for the treble)....buckskin hammers >make a wonderful sound on these light strung near-harpsichord-weight >instruments. > >The action is so light you can play fast without impediment. But the >tone is rather small. It was double strung and nice to tune. Sustain in >the treble is very short, and not what I'd call an asset. > >A Liszt piece would be easy on something like this. > >If an 1830s Erard is as light but superior treble, then I can see how >it might be worth >trying some Liszt on for the "experience". > >The basses on all these pianos I've listened to prior to the 1850s are >rather thin or light or shallow compared to today's or even to an 1850s >piano. This might change the voicing relationships in the Transcendental >Etudes or make a Hungarian Rhapsody more Cembolom-like. > >The pianist I toured with is looking for an Erard from mid 1820s-35 I >think she said. I can >pass along any info anyone has about finding one to restore. I believe >she said someone donated >one to them, but it was not early enough, and needs a complete >restoration. She's trying to >raise some money for that. > > >One of the links I put on my original post will take you to an article >about an original Liszt owned Erard >in the Met Museum (NYC)...but I don't think any recordings of it are >available. > >I have the recordings w/Emaual AX of Chopin on an Erard....(the piano >is from 1851; still too new) ...this piano is very modern in sound to my >ears....I also did not hear any great revelations >(from the performer, or the piano) to convince me of the need to >perform Chopin (or Liszt) for >that matter on an antique piano or a modern reproduction from this >period. > >Sadly, I don't think anyone is going to reproduce an 1830 Erard/or >Pleyel. We really don't know what they sounded like new, do we? > >We do have reproductions of pianos that Schumann would have played, >the Graf, and can even hear the difference between an antique and >reproduction. >Yes, my antique keyboard loving friends, there is a CD recorded on >Clara Schumanns Hammer-Flugel! >(And I have it).... These reproductions are very pricey, as much as >a modern grand. One had better be very serious about playing if they >are thinking of getting such an instrument. This is hardly the casual >instrument we all meet when tuning away from the academy. > >I do feel that the pianos Schumann would have used, the Viennese >pianos, and those earlier Broadwoods Beethoven used, all present a very >big contrast and are revelatory more so than the "modern" sounds of an >1851 Erard for example. > >You can play Liszt on one of these, and get the idea of what Liszt >sounded like when playing >a Graf....and he would have probably (possibly) played Clara's as would >have Brahms, and >other illustrious musicians (Joachim et al). > >The CD I have of pianos from 1800 to 1830s shows a consistency in that >the instruments though made >by different makers are incredibly sweet. They have charm. Some have >better trebles than others. The later in the 1800s you get, the closer >the sound is to a modern grand. By 1851(as the Ax recording shows), the >piano approaches modern sounds, and perhaps when new, this piano was >even more modern sounding. > >Liszt did have in his collection of instruments a Broadwood that once >belonged to Beethoven. Liszt would >have toured England using Broadwoods. (I don't think he was too happy >with them.)Perhaps that would be instructive. YOu could hear what >Liszt's music would have sounded like in England at the time. > >Last year there was another rebuilt "restored" Erard concert grand on >Pianomart for about $10-12K down south somewhere, it might still be on >there. [I wonder if the rebuilder put in genuine Abel- Erard hammers >from the factory, or if they used "Royal George" Erard hammers?] This >piano would have been >too "new" for "authentic Liszt", not being from the 1830s or earlier. > >All kidding aside, I would like to have an Erard from the 1830s if it >has a good sustain and good treble. (Whatever that means.) Only a >reproduction, or perhaps one with a new board and "some" downbearing >will give us an approximation of those old days. A board that old would >need to be examine >very carfully. > >What the tone of an 1828 Erard was like I don't know yet. Was it as >robust as the 1859 or 1878 instrument? >I'm pretty sure it was sweeter than a modern piano, though. > >We can hear the consistency in the Steinway pianos from 1859 to the >present. Was it the same with >Erard? >A much nicer Erard recording can be heard on the Opal CD of Frances >Plante( 1839-1934)... who as you >all know counted Liszt among his friends. This Erard, though, sounds >pretty much like a modern concert grand ( because ha,ha....it is!!!). > >As you know so many of Chopin's works were composed on a "cottage" >piano in >Majorca...so do you have to go there and play one of these ( a new >repro, ofcourse) to "get into" his "sound world"? > >I think there are intellecutuals out there, and then there are >"intellectuatuals" out there....these are >the same people who are stopping spelling bees because they are adverse >to the "No Child Left Behind" >law...and should be listened to. > >As CAUT,though, we are probably caught up in tuning modern pianos, and >these excursions to the past >however interesting will not change our present preference for the >modern grand in the music >of Liszt, Chopin or Brahms. > >Best of luck with your antique projects....hope it comes out to your >liking. > >Richard > > >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:39:18 -0500 >From: Bdshull@aol.com >To: caut@ptg.org (College and University Technicians) >Subject: Re: [CAUT] Liszt, historical pianos et. al.disccusion and >links > (long) >Message-ID: <4EC08AFD.79DDE5A3.0015DA86@aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Precedence: list >Message: 6 > >Hi, Richard, > >Thanks for you incredibly entertaining post! > >While Liszt did endorse, own and play a multitude of pianos throughout >his life, the piano of choice during his "recitalizing" and composing >years was the Erard. His "sound world" as a pianist and composer was >informed by all the brands he came into contact with (and there was a >great variety in the first half of the nineteenth century). But since >the Erard was his preferred instrument through the early 50's, it was >his primary point of reference. > >This is why I believe in the importance of replicating the Erard, >preferably an instrument similar to the one donated by our colleague >David Moore (who died in a plane crash a couple years ago) to the >National Music Museum: > >NMM 5984. Grand piano by Erard, Paris, 1849. AAA-a4 (7 octaves). Two >pedals: una corda, dampers. Gift of David Moore, Jacksonville, Texas, >1996. > >David made sure to tell me that he had restrung and rehammered this >piano, and that it was no longer original. But this 1849 Erard was the >largest compass Erard built to date, one of the first 85 note pianos >built. It can accomodate all of Liszt's literature, while faithfully >representing his earlier material too, since the design remained similar >for the 25 years leading up to 1849. > >I don't know what the treble will sound like on a replica Erard, but I >would love to know. Your very entertaining description of the Erard in >the recording isn't the reaction of everyone (my musicology professor >loved the sound of the Erard restored by David Winston in the recent >Emmanuel Ax Chopin recordings - but he has a more open mind than most... > :) > >I still hold out hope we will get more from the treble when the belly >is new and the string is deflected (I haven't found any documentation >for crown or bearing for Erard, but I haven't looked too hard, and would >love to find it), but it seems obvious Erard would have deflected the >string some, and a new belly must sound different than an old one in the >treble, no? > >Loved your post...! > >Bill > > > >>As far as Liszt goes, he owned at one time or another many brands of >>pianos. He wrote >>many endorsements on their worth, among them: >>Chickering,Bosendorfer,Erard,Bechstein,Steinway, Ibach. >>Perhaps the upright at Weimar.is an Ibach. There are several accounts >>in various books of how >>he taught and on what pianos he played. Fascinating reading. >> >>His last pianos at Weimar were an upright, and a Bechstein concerrt >>grand. He played the upright to demonstrate on, and his pupils >performed >>on the Bechstein. There are some photos that >>can be seen of him seated at the upright. Perhaps the Decca >recordings >>of Jorge Bolet on Bechstein >>concert grands give you some idea, and then, perhaps not. >> >>Please don't ask me to document everything...I'm already staying >>overtime ....I'm not goint >>to research all this again. It is in the books on Liszt for you to >>read. >> >>Liszt at the upright: >>http://perso.wanadoo.fr/joel.puissant/perse/liszt.html >> >>http://www.freud.org.uk/Theory5.html >> >>http://www.mycomposers.co.uk/?page=composer&surname=Liszt >> >>http://www.classical.net/lps/images/big/lon-liszt.jpg >> >>the early square piano (can you imagine???!!!)... >>http://www.arts.arizona.edu/mus330b/images/liszt-02.jpg >> >>perhpas you'll want to look at: >> >>1860 Steinway (like my friend's)... >> >>http://www.liszt.it/steinwaynew.htm >> >>http://www.periodpiano.com/Stock/default.htm >> >>Liszt's Erard >>http://www.metmuseum.org/news/newspressrelease.asp?PressReleaseId=%7B98ED1CDA-5015-11D5-93F5-00902786BF44%7D >> >>sorry for thils windy post... >> >>Richard >> >> >> >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >End of caut Digest, Vol 748, Issue 2 >************************************ > >
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