[CAUT] electronic tuning device preference?

[Richard Brekne]

Hi Richard W.

I see there are a few fine answers thrown out there already, but as I'm 
less then certain they clear up the querries of those who are 
unaccustomed to direct referencing, or as you coined it, 
multi-referencing ETD's I thought I'd throw out an example of my own.

I use tunelab, which I find very conducive to using in this fashion.  My 
tuning curve template is all built on one long curve of 3rd partials 
from A1 to F6 patched together with Tunelab 97's tuning curve editor.  
Its based on a Perfect 12th D3(3)-A4(1) together with a just narrow 
enough A4/A3 6:3 octave to accommodate a decent sounding 4:2 octave.  
Once these three notes are tuned and sampled for their resulting 3rd 
partials Tunelab creates the curve in the range... and it just gets 
extended in similar fashion sampling other notes to include the rest.  
The end curve is comprised of only 3rd partials as stated.  As a 
template it works quite well enough on its own... but as a tool to aid 
an ear tweaking it is quite helpful indeed.  Any given note is note a 
calculated 3rd partial frequency... and allows the direct referencing of 
6:3 octaves below, 4:1 double octaves above, 4:2 and 2:1 octaves, and 
3:1 and 6:2 12ths. On can also look very closely at other related 
octaves and other intervals if desired.   How does this fit perfectly 
with an ear tuning ?

Take D3 as an example.  Since the curve utilizes the 3rd partial of all 
notes, D3's 3rd partial also gives me an exact match to the 6:3 octave 
below. Aurally we use the inside minor third / major sixth test for 
this.. one can listen to and watch exactly the same relationship. 
Leaving Tunelab at D3 I just tune D2 to the same frequency.  One thing 
nice about Tunelab Pocket  is that a quick button allows me to switch to 
any other partial for the note on the display.  So if I want to double 
check the 4:2 relation at D2-D3 while I'm at it... I simply switch to 
2nd partial, play D3 and zero the phase display... and then play D2.  
Often quite handy for resolving para-inharmonicity issues in the bass.  
D3's 3rd partial also gives me the fundamental of A4 in my default 
tuning.  This is a perfect 12th which is a commonly used priority by 
aural tuners achieved by using the major 6th below the lowest note of 
the 12th as a reference note, i.e. the major 6th and 17th test.  On the 
ETD both D3 and A4 should stop the display. I can also look at A3.  I 
know this is a fifth to D3, and since D3's 3rd partial is used, I'm 
looking at the 2nd partial of A3 and the fundamental of A4... i.e. the 
2:1 octave type. Handy higher up in the scale.

A common aural check in the treble is to check the 5:4:3:2:1 coincidents 
in a run like fashion... playing the 5:4, then the 5:3, 5:2 and 5:1 in 
fairly rapid succession getting the sense of the relative beat rates. 
There's a lot in those 5 coincidents that aural tuners use various tests 
for all the time.  Knowing what partial your ETD is looking at for any 
given note allows you to look at the coincidents for all relative 
notes... but taking it a step further and using an ETD based tuning 
curve to purposefully glide right into what checks an aural tuning very 
frequently employs creates a kind of hybrid tuning that is not really an 
ETD tuning at all... but an aural tuning in which ones aural checks are 
supplemented by the precision readouts of the visual phase display from 
the ETD.

I suppose there are several approaches to splicing these two methods 
(aural and electronic) of checking notes together depending on the ETD 
in use by the individual tuner. Like I say, I use a P-12th based 3rd 
partials curve and it works very well indeed... but the basic approach 
to multi-referencing as you put it is the same regardless of what the 
curve is or what the ETD is... just as long as you keep track of what 
you are actually reading.

Cheers
RicB


     > One thing that has always bothered me about ETD's is that there seems
     > to be so little "multi-referencing," if I can coin a word.  Perhaps I
     > just need someone to show me how to operate an ETD to get more out of
     > it. I'll see if I can briefly explain what I mean.
     >
     > An aural tuner's accuracy depends heavily on "multireferencing,"
     > i.e., tuning a note by referring to many other notes.  For example,
     > tuning the G4 I start with the octave, then check the M3rd-M10th, the
     > 4th and its test interval (M3rd-M6h), the 5th and its test interval
     > (M6th-M10th), the ascending/descending M 6ths, etc.  I'm actually
     > doing two things with all of this multi-referencing:  tuning G4 and
     > checking all of my work up to that point.
     >
     > ETD users take readings to set up the tuning on the machine, but then
     > the process is centered around one note after another without
     > referencing other notes, especially if no aural checks are
     > incorporated into the process.  My question is this:  Without
     > referencing other notes, how do you know that the G4, for example,
     > fits in the larger scheme of things?  What if the note is quirky and
     > hard to read?  You don't have any other reference note to use to
     > determine where the string should be placed.  Maybe there are people
     > out there who don't rely on the one reading and measure 4:2 octaves,
     > or 4ths, or 5ths etc, although that seems cumbersome and
    time-consuming.
     >
     > My main point, therefore, is that the potential of leaving a note
     > "out of tune" with other notes is greater because there aren't the
     > checks and balances that aural tuning affords.
     >
     > Perhaps I'm misinformed and/or ignorant on sophisticated ETD use.
     > But I also fear that many beginners simply turn on the machine and
     > slavishly follow it without really knowing whether the piano is
     > really better or not.  Just as bad a possibility is that it seems
     > easy to get sloppy so that the full blush isn't there, or the X
     > pattern isn't there.  This compromises the results and the tuner
     > doesn't really know any better.
     >
     > Sloppiness and laziness can compromise aural as well as ETD tuning.
     > It just seems to me that either system has to have some multi-
     > referencing and I'm just not familiar with how that's done using
    an ETD.
     >
     > Richard West