... and another thing from my Liszt-loving friend, along the lines of the value of understanding more about the variety of instruments that Liszt himself would have played upon...
Alan Eder
-----Original Message-----
From: HTH340 at aol.com
To: reggaepass at aol.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 26, 2010 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fwd: liszt temp
Hi Alan,
Thanks for asking, I thought about not sending it at all, but I did anyway. I think it's good for friends to tell the truth when they can...
Sure, of course feel free to share, same with my other responses. I hope no-one takes this as an attack, it's not intended as such.
Let's see what people have to say.
MDS
In a message dated 1/26/2010 1:29:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, reggaepass at aol.com writes:
Dude,
Wowie-zowie! May I share this with the list?
ae
-----Original Message-----
From: HTH340 at aol.com
To: reggaepass at aol.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 26, 2010 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fwd: liszt temp
Hi Alan,
I had the opportunity to play on bunch of the actual pianos Liszt played on, plus a bunch of historical instruments in the Vienna Historical Instrument Museum. Some were in "old" condition, ranging from unplayable to pretty good. Others had been refurbished, with period parts, or with modern approximations. I haven't played anything that was a replica, built to sound as someone thinks they may have sounded.
In my experience, it's remarkable how much they sound like modern instruments. The biggest changes are back around 1840 - 1860. After that, they sound like our pianos, more or less.
What is so important about the instruments of bygone times is the VARIETY of touches and sounds form each different maker and instrument. Today, pianos all sound the same compared to the old ones. It was taken for granted that players and audiences alike really didn't know what to expect from a piano until they played or heard it: it wasn't at all standardized.
Pursuit of "authenticity" has very limited rewards, I think, but the understanding that there was such an allowance for differing sounds, touches, pedaling, tunings, and performance traditions is the most important thing to realize about the old days. Classical music had not yet been quarantined to the concert hall and the academy.
Liszt had no compunction about transferring music from one medium to the next, be it compositions of his own or by others. Orchestral music was played at the piano, piano music on the organ, and entirely new instruments embraced that fit into no categories at all. Clearly, his view of music was universal.
Liszt taught throughout his life, and it's fascinating to note that while he was capable of being fastidious regarding the interpretation of a printed page, he didn't insist on achieving a sonic surface that represented the score. Consistently his emphasis was upon communicating the intention that he thought the score represented in human terms. The meaning of the music was paramount, and to fail at communicating this to the listener was the ultimate failure. He called a correct interpretation of the score with little conviction or persuasiveness the "Pontius Pilate offense", an allusion to the Roman prelate who "washed his hands" of any culpability in the crucifixion of Christ. Pilate had followed the letter of the law, but missed the spiritual point of his actions. Thus, fidelity to the score was not the primary consideration of an artist.
I mention this because textual fidelity is a stone's throw from "instrumental" fidelity, the notion that we can understand Liszt's truest intentions about his music by playing it on period instruments (with period tunings of course!). Such adventures would be fun and informative, to be sure. But the music of Liszt is not a relic; his was a human, a spiritual endeavor, and the challenge to every musician that plays Liszt has to do with just this spiritual quest....to understand and to play Liszt as he intended is to embark on a different kind of pursuit....
Such statements are not personal asides, they go straight to the heart of Liszt and his music. I RARELY hear such talk from classical musicians...perhaps why I rarely hear any piano playing I think is worth listening to...Yet I think it should be the primary consideration...
MDS
In a message dated 1/26/2010 9:13:08 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, reggaepass at aol.com writes:
...in response to which, L. L. chimes in with this:
ae
-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Libin <lelibin at optonline.net>
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Mon, Jan 25, 2010 7:27 pm
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fwd: liszt temp
Yes, it can be revelatory. Start by listening to Claire Chevallier playing the Vallee d'Obermann on a gorgeous 1886 Erard. Carlo Dominici recorded Jeux d'eau on his ca. 1862 Erard that Liszt owned late in life; we displayed it at the Met about 2002. Daniel Grimwood has recorded Liszt on an earlier Erard. In good condition, those pianos are amazing. If you want to pursue it, look at www.pianosromantiques.com and talk with Robert Winter at UCLA.
Laurence
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Sturm
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Fwd: liszt temp
On Jan 25, 2010, at 12:34 PM, reggaepass at aol.com wrote:
If anyone is motivated enough to pursue the matter with Liszt specialists, below are where/whom to ask (references by a Liszt-o-phile friend of mine whom I've been keeping abreast of this thread).
Actually, a far more fruitful question to ask is what kind of piano would be appropriate. Liszt's career spanned the time from late Beethoven to the early modern piano, quite an amazing period of time for the development of the instrument. He would have played on straight strung all wood instruments to start with, and with light hammers covered in layers of felt/cloth and/or leather, accelerated at a very high ratio. The timbre would have varied considerably from top to bottom. He played on Viennese actions as well as early "English" and later double escapement.
These differences from the modern concert grand would be far more significant to both performer and audience than a very subtle change of temperament from ET, should one choose to go that route. I doubt many people have heard Liszt on an older design piano - I know I haven't - and it would probably be a revelation. OTOH, much easier said than done. The instrument has to be available, while a change in tuning is next to nothing.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm at unm.edu
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