hi Chris, this is interesting. After some googles I have found a few articles thatshed some light. Are these shanks hollow or solid? Apparently there is advancedphysics involved in the oscillating style modes of carbon fiber so I guess that all parts are in a vibrational state whether played or not. I have been cycling on carbon fiber frames for years and it is a sweet ride and there is even a sound to it. Mr. Sutton's point of excessive brightness brings up the subject for me thatMason's had a warmer tonality before the days of Renner hammers. I preferSteinway hammers especially in the top end where there is more underfelt tocushion the molding and also it is not glued at the
tip. So maybe the comboof softer hammers juiced up, the resonater, and carbon fiber action parts isthe wave of the future. Since carbon fiber dust can arc I would stay awayfrom using a Dremel tool for cutting should one end up with toasted fingers.
Brent
--- On Fri, 9/10/10, chris at csollidaypiano.com <chris at csollidaypiano.com> wrote:
From: chris at csollidaypiano.com <chris at csollidaypiano.com>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] CAUT Digest, Vol 23, Issue 23
To: caut at ptg.org
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:40 AM
Brent, I assure you it is not the resonator that I experienced. I have been working with Masons for over 30 years. No this was definitely the shank and Bruce Clark explained that the sustain begins sooner and lasts longer as a result. The difference is quite startling.
Chris Solliday
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-request at ptg.org
Sender: caut-bounces at ptg.org
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:52:01
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Reply-To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 23, Issue 23
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Hammer shank cutting block (Ron Nossaman)
2. Re: Hammer shank cutting block (Edward Sambell)
3. Re: Hammer shank cutting block (isaac at isaacpiano.com)
4. Re: WNG parts (Brent
Fischer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:38:32 -0500
From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
Message-ID: <4C896FF8.8060708 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 9/9/2010 5:48 PM, Jim Busby wrote:
> Ron,
>
> The guy that taught that glue class used garlic (Yep, garlic!) and
> stuck something (with hide glue) to metal that supposedly wouldn't
> work. Vinny showed me, and I laughed... but it worked. Seriously.
> Ever tried it? I certainly thought it
wouldn't... I can't remember
> how he did it, but I think some incantations might have been used as
> well.
Hmmm, that sounds familiar, from a long time ago. I've stuck things to
metal with hide clue, but as the glue hardened, it failed later. I
haven't tried it with garlic. Seems to me you needed a vampire in there
somewhere too...
Ron N
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:13:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Edward Sambell <esambell at yahoo.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
Message-ID: <56427.34064.qm at web113214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Sorry about he photos. I have resent them via Adobe Photo Mail, and hope it
works this time. There is no setup time with the block and it holds the shank
very securely. The Kawai tech cut the shank off with one stroke of the saw.The
sawdust is very minor, but if it proved to be a problem I would make a little
cloth hood and move it from hammer to hammer. I only present the idea to show
that we do not always need elaborate equipment to work efficiently. and is not
intended to claim it as superior to any other method. What works best for you is
the way to go.
Thanks Ron for your information on the glue.
Paul: Thanks for your kind comments. I am no longer in Banff , and moved to
London, Ontario to be close to my family after retiring in 2001. I
still do a
little work, but at age eighty-seven no longer full time. I am tinkering with
making simple tools, and am currently working on an article on voicing uprights.
I am very well and enjoying life.
Ted Sambell
________________________________
From: Jim Busby <jim_busby at byu.edu>
To: "caut at ptg.org" <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 5:28:26 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
Paul,
On the last few sets I used my ?Multitool?,
http://allprotools.com/dremel/oscillating-tool.html?gclid=CKqMm7Sk-6MCFRxEgwod3HFQHQ
and my shank clamps, and it literally took me longer to attach the clamps than
it did to cut them off.
Best,
Jim
From:caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Paul T
Williams
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 3:19 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
Sorry Ted, but no photos were attached!
I've also found a Dremmel tool with a cutter works nice and neat as well with
little sanding....and very fast! I just tried this with my first set of WNG
carbon fiber shanks, and with a few minutes of careful prep (ie covering the
hammers to keep the black dust off) works very
well. I'll use this method again
even with wood shanks. Even a first try took about 15 minutes, and I'm sure it
will speed up next time.
Are you still in Banff, Alberta? I still have that hammer-top "squaring off"
sanding jig you gave me some 15 years ago and use it often! (new sandpaper
replaced, of course! ;>) ) Thank you so much!
Best,
Paul
From: Edward Sambell <esambell at yahoo.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Date: 09/09/2010 03:43 PM
Subject: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
________________________________
The attached photos are of a hammer shank cutting
block I made ten years ago and
used ever since for cutting away the protruding stubs of new grand hammer
shanks. It is based on those used in the Kawai factory. Their technician did a
whole set in less than five minutes. I could not work that fast; it generally
takes me ten minutes or more. A Japanese saw (which cuts on the pull stroke)
MUST be used, as a Western saw can result in damage to the centers. I use a
Dozuki (dovetail) saw with a stiff back 9" blade. Cutting flush carefully makes
sanding the shank ends unnecessary, though a few strokes with a sanding paddle
gives a nice appearance. I have the WNG kit, but have yet to install a set of
the shanks, so do not know if the saw will cut them satisfactorily. If it does,
there will be very little dust. If anyone is interested in further information,
let me know and I will post a sketch and instructions on making the block. It is
very simple,
and can be made in half an hour, but one does need a table saw and
dado blades.
As for glue - is hide glue unsuitable for the carbon fibre material? Wherever it
makes sense I prefer natural glues. What about fish glue? It sets slowly ,but
has a fast tack, . I find it helps correct the vertical angles while gluing the
hammers on.
Ted Sambell
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 21:50:36 -0400
From: isaac at isaacpiano.com
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
Message-ID:
<201009100150.o8A1oU1U018167 at mail305c9.megamailservers.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Ted.
Did you, by any chance, receive the cd I sent you a couple of weeks ago?
I hope so. If you did receive it, did you have a chance to listen to it? I
wonder, if you did, what you think of the tone on that recording.
Thank you
Ari Isaac.
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Edward
Sambell
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 4:36 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block
The attached photos are of a hammer shank cutting block I made ten years ago
and used ever since for cutting away the protruding stubs of new grand
hammer shanks. It is based on those used in the Kawai factory. Their
technician did a whole set in less than five minutes. I could not work that
fast; it generally takes me ten minutes or more. A Japanese saw (which cuts
on the pull stroke) MUST be used, as a Western saw can result in damage to
the centers. I use a Dozuki (dovetail) saw with a stiff back 9" blade.
Cutting flush carefully makes sanding the shank ends unnecessary, though a
few strokes with a sanding paddle gives a nice
appearance. I have the WNG
kit, but have yet to install a set of the shanks, so do not know if the saw
will cut them satisfactorily. If it does, there will be very little dust. If
anyone is interested in further information, let me know and I will post a
sketch and instructions on making the block. It is very simple, and can be
made in half an hour, but one does need a table saw and dado blades.
As for glue - is hide glue unsuitable for the carbon fibre material?
Wherever it makes sense I prefer natural glues. What about fish glue? It
sets slowly ,but has a fast tack, . I find it helps correct the vertical
angles while gluing the hammers on.
Ted Sambell
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3124 - Release Date: 09/09/10
02:34:00
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu,
9 Sep 2010 20:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] WNG parts
Message-ID: <924107.65216.qm at web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Chris, the Mason and Hamlin tension resonator is more likely what you areexperiencing here. ?As you know it is installed and tightened before the outerrim is glued on and even at that point there is a noticeable sustain just?whacking the center disc. With the plate out and giving the board a thumpit is quite remarkable how the resonater supports soundboard sustain.I know nothing about the possible
benefits of these shanks for tone productionbut it could be a case of STI. (shank tonal imprint)
--- On Thu, 9/9/10, Chris Solliday <chris at csollidaypiano.com> wrote:
From: Chris Solliday <chris at csollidaypiano.com>
Subject: [CAUT] WNG parts
To: caut at ptg.org
Date: Thursday, September 9, 2010, 3:13 PM
I too am in the process of restoring a M&H BB using WNG
parts. It discussion has been most interesting and I thank everyone for
answering many of my questions before they were asked. I played the CC at Las
Vegas this summer and was very impressed the touch and its evenness. I
was,
however, literally frightened by the tone quality. At first I thought that it
was amplified and I asked Bruce to turn it off. He assured me that it wasn?t
and that if I kept playing I would get used to ?it.? To some degree
I did but I really felt like I would like an hour or two alone in a quiet room
to really warm up to something so atypical. The sound is HOT. The sustain is
long and it begins at a level that seems higher sooner. I still haven?t
got exactly the right description for it but it is definitely different than
most anything else (read, wooden shanks). My fear is that the pianist that I am
working for will also be frightened. This piano is in his teaching studio and
then he and the students go to the recital hall where there is a Bosendorfer
and a Steinway for their concerts. I?m worried that even if they do like
or get used to the WNG shanks tonal production, they may find practicing on it
and then
shifting gears to the more conventional tone of the other pianos too
much of a jump. I haven?t drilled the hammers yet and have a set of
wooden ones which I bought just in case. The design and material choice of
these parts seems revolutionary in terms of stability and weight control, to me
at least, and I really want them to work. I notice that Kawai with their entry
hasn?t gone to the shanks with plastic, perhaps for the reasons that I
fear. Does anyone have any experience with this aspect yet? Or opinions? Oh I
know there are opinions out there! I?m askin? for it.
Thanks,
Chris Solliday ?
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