Fw: Fw: Ditch the tuning pin bushings

[Erwinpiano]

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Skolnik" <skolnik@attglobal.net>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Ditch the tuning pin bushings


>
> Dale-
> I have a couple of problems trying to draw general conclusions from your
> observations (below) of two pianos, one practically 100 years old and the
> other, 80.  They are, as you say, original stringing.  Surely one would
> expect to see some kind of structural deterioration by this time, no?

David ,both pianos are both very well preserved calif pianos and you have to
remember that the climate is kinder and gentler than many U.S. climates. If
you sat down to tune these two pianos you would have a pleasant time.  The
pins render(even with some contact) and torque is excellant. Both pianos
even have all there original and unchipped and quite white ivory's! It's not
uncommon for me to see this.  Del knows this climate as I do and can
coroborate.
  The older A needs a board (It's dry enough to have hairline cracks/crown
loss and sounds bad in the killer octave but nowhere else)but it's not as
bad as most. The other does not need a board (bay area piano)and sounds
quite healthy thru out  the scale.

 They
> probably contain the type of 3ply block to which Del, and perhaps others,
> have referred, however, your examples are not necessarily representative
of
> the situation with which we are dealing when confronted with the same
> nominal conditions in a new, or newly rebuilt instrument.

  So ?we're talking about 2 different conditions and nobody stated that as a
parameter when the discussion got going about all this,
   and Yes they are the much maligned block but I don't find them screaming
at the seams. The pin/plate contact on the newer A frankly could have been
the results of sloppy  original 1923 drilling which would parralell your
experience with newly rebuilt or newer stwys.


 For one, the
> actual amount of pressure being exerted upon the plate webbing by pins
that
> have shifted over an extended period, as opposed to those to be found
> present from the beginning, could be quite a bit less.   It's also
> conceivable that the same lose of stability and tunability that could
ensue
> from pins pulling forward in an aging block might, in fact, be restored by
> the plate contact.

  Quite true

 Compare that with the cumulative effect of an  tight
> tuning pin in a new (5?6? ply) block, with the additional torque from
plate
> contact, and without the ability to use forward pin flex to equalize
string
> tension.   These are different animals. I'm comfortable with the former,
> not the latter.

   Dittos, different animals indeed.  Is that what your finding and is that
your common expereince with newer and rebuilt stwys? I'm not seeing many new
stwys.
>
> Regards,
>
> David Skolnik
>
>
>
> At 01:04 PM 05/13/2001 -0700, Dale wrote:
>           Del Rons List
>
>         All this talk about plate bushing! We are a bunch of tecn -no
geeks.
> Del your last paragraph here got me to thinking some more about the stwy
> tuning pin plate hole size and how the pins couldn't help but contact the
> plate . Sooooo I had to go take a closer look. I currently have two stwy A
.
> One is a 1906 and the other a 1923 ish.  Both are original stringing. I
went
> looking to see how many pins contacted the plate flange.  On the larger
> holes with the champfer the eldest A had no pins leaning against the
flange.
> In the low tenor and bass it was difficult to see for sure but it did
appear
> some did some didn't.  On the newer A even in the top end ther were at
least
> a couple dozen leaning into the flange and in the bass as far as I could
> tell many were leaning.
>        O.K. so I've tuned both pianos(and many others) and they tune well.
> So that being the case does it really matter that they lean into the
flange
> some if the tuning stability and ease of pin render doesn't suffer.
> Obviously we have all tuned these pianos with great success for years and
at
> least some of those pianos had more than a few pins touching. Other than
> sloppy drilling and the alleged denials from stwy that the pins don't
touch
> the flange because of design or whatever does it matter?  Would it matter
if
> they all touched? I wouldn't want them to but now that I've been
enlightened
> to the fact that all those old stwys I enjoyed tuning were probably
similar
> to the ones I just described, who cares should we care.The soution for
> rebuilders is fit the block and drill carefully.
>     I know that we have all been frustrated by the stwy party
line,pedantic
> style and frustrating parts dept. but I and also remember that I  still
get
> my best raw materials from them.
>
>     Best
>
>   Dale Erwin
>  >
>  >
>