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Terry:
I think that kind of sampling (5 A's and 5 other notes) is probably =
overkill and takes too much time. Since I tune the lower part of the =
piano using the direct tuning method I agree that the A and C =
measurements are more important. If you don't want to change the DOB on =
the fly then I think tuning F3, F4 and F5 for the DOB measurement will =
give you a good enough read. =20
If the piano is poorly scaled and the lower part of the tenor bridge =
coincides with F3 and looks a bit like a hockey stick, then move up the =
scale a bit and take A3, A4, A5, or from a point where the inharmonicity =
numbers start to drop a bit. Tune from that point going up first and =
then down from there using the direct tune method checking aurally as =
you go. For smaller pianos I find that tuning perfect 4:2's down to =
about B2 and perfect 6:3's the rest of the way usually works pretty =
well. But the piano will generally tell you where it wants that =
transition to be made. I find it is a pretty reliable and quick way of =
working .
David Love
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Farrell=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: October 22, 2001 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
Thanks for the input David. What I do usually is do my FAC, and then =
sample 5 A's or whatever note, and often 5 of another note to test =
octaves. I see how they vary and then choose appropriate DOB to get what =
I want. The A measurement has (by far) the dominant effect on the tuning =
calculation. I often measure all three A4 strings, and the middle A#4 =
and the middle G#4 string and see what they look like. It is interesting =
to look at these because often one of the notes will differ quite a bit =
from the others. Remember, there is nothing magical about A4 when =
choosing a note to measure for the FAC tuning calculation. A4 is simply =
(ideally) a representative note from that area of the piano. Anyway, =
after I adjust the DOB to get what I want, I start tuning from A0.
One of my goals is to adjust my style and start tuning from A4 so that =
I can incorporate adjustments on the fly. I say I have read all of Jim =
Coleman's material - I have. But I have to admit that I have not =
incorporated all of it into my daily tuning routine. I'm working on it!
Terry Farrell =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David Love=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
Terry:
One other comment on the SATIII and the DOB. As Jim Coleman has =
pointed out you can use the DOB on the fly, so to speak, adjusting it as =
you go depending on the piano. If you do this, however, you must start =
tuning from A4 outward. Changes in the DOB will have no effect on A4 =
but will have an increasing effect as you go out. If you start tuning =
at A0 and tune chromatically upward and discover that the octaves around =
A3 need to be narrowed then the DOB will change the settings most of =
those notes that you've already tuned. Going up from A4, of course, =
would not be a problem.
And just to emphasize that stretch settings are very piano =
dependent, I tuned 6' Kawai grand this morning. The FAC numbers were =
quite low, on the order of 6.7, 5.7, 5.8. This setting put C8 around =
31. I found that I had to increase the DOB to about +.3 to get the =
amount of stretch I wanted. So it can definitely go both ways. =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Farrell=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: October 21, 2001 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
Thanks for your comments David. I follow pretty much exactly what =
you described in your post below when I tune. I usually test some sample =
octaves all across the keyboard to get a feel for what I will be wanting =
to do with the DOB. I have all of Jim Coleman's info and have studied it =
extensively. When I said that I wonder what I should be doing with my =
octaves, I was referring to the upper treble (as in your original post) =
and was indicating that I know very little about upper treble stretch =
theory - why some tuners stretch more than others, why some stretch a =
big piano on a stage more than a small piano in a home. When techs are =
talking about these various amounts of stretch, what are they doing with =
the amount of beating in octaves and double and triple octaves way up in =
the high treble? Are we talking only about putting a half or a quarter =
bpm in some type of octave, or lots of beats or what? Any thoughts would =
be welcome.
Terry Farrell
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David Love=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
As a general rule I am finding that small pianos require an =
entry of -.5 on the DOB and as the pianos get bigger that number =
decreases. But you can measure the stretch before you start by tuning a =
double octave (after entering the FAC numbers and saving), and testing =
aurally to see if it is where you want it. The SAT uses A4 as the fixed =
point so keep that in mind when you choose your test double octave. I =
usually try and test the double octave to not include any wound strings. =
If the double octave is too wide, input a negative number on the DOB =
and change notes (step up, step down) to implement the change. Test =
again. When you get it where you want it go ahead and start tuning. =
When tuning with the SAT I start in the tenor and go up (when tuning =
aurally, I start from the temperament and go down). When I am done with =
the treble I usually direct tune the bass as the machine sometimes has =
problems across the break and I don't always agree with its choices for =
stretch in the bass. Jim Coleman has made several contributions to the =
list regarding use of the DOB. I recommend you search the archives and =
check them out. =20
David Love=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Farrell=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: October 21, 2001 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
I would sure like to hear more on this topic. As a tuner still =
on a steep learning curve, I wonder just what I should be doing with my =
octaves, but I find that the SAT III is either right where I wish it to =
be, or sometimes I do find that it seems to have calculated a tuning =
with too much stretch, and I have to enter negative numbers in the DOB =
to slow the beating down - occasionally quite a bit.
Terry Farrell =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David Love=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
My experience suggests that C8 at 43+ is not a conservative =
stretch but a fairly healthy one. To my ear, I usually reduce the =
stretch (on the SATIII via the DOB). On concert grands I seem to =
prefer it a bit under 40. On smaller grands and uprights, in the mid =
30's. Of course the general scaling does make a difference. But =
generally I find the standard setting on a SATIII over stretches. I am =
curious what other people find.
David Love=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David M. Porritt=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: October 21, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing
Bill:
You've talked quite a bit of your "tempered octaves" but =
as one who has seen everything from 2:1 octaves to outrageously =
stretched octaves I don't know what kind of stretch you're talking =
about. Could you give us some numbers so we can know what you mean by =
tempered octaves? =20
For example, when I tune a Steinway D my C6 is stretched =
to 5.06, C7 is 16.11, and C8 is 43.84. This is what I consider a =
conservative tuning. What kind of numbers do you get? On any piano, =
just measure your C6, 7, & 8 and tell us what model piano it is, and how =
it stretches with your tempered octaves. That would be very =
informative.
Thanks,
dave
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 10/21/01 at 7:19 AM Billbrpt@AOL.COM wrote:
In a message dated 10/21/01 6:07:55 AM Central Daylight =
Time, davidlovepianos@earthlink.net (David Love) writes:=20
That being said, if the pianist needs an altered =
tuning to create excitement, he should practice more.
It's always been my belief, as a piano technician that =
the better prepared the piano, the better equipped the artist is. =
Remember that I have not advocated *HT* as such for Jazz. To you, this =
implies *altered* tuning which means something quite noticeably =
different and thus creates an *interference* with what you do rather =
than provide an enhancement.=20
I don't know if you can or have tried my EBVT but as I =
have designed it (with Tempered Octaves), it is meant to enhance your =
playing, not shock or disturb your musical sensibilities. It is meant =
to provide definition, texture and clarity, not weird, jarring and =
shocking dissonances. If the EBVT is still to *altered* for you, I =
believe you might benefit from the Marpurg (also with my Tempered =
Octaves system). I will give your piano an uncanny clean, crisp and =
clear sound but absolutely will not create any distinction between keys. =
Bill Bremmer RPT=20
Madison, Wisconsin
_____________________________
David M. Porritt
dporritt@mail.smu.edu
Meadows School of the Arts
Southern Methodist University
Dallas, TX 75275
_____________________________
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