This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Terry: I think that kind of sampling (5 A's and 5 other notes) is probably = overkill and takes too much time. Since I tune the lower part of the = piano using the direct tuning method I agree that the A and C = measurements are more important. If you don't want to change the DOB on = the fly then I think tuning F3, F4 and F5 for the DOB measurement will = give you a good enough read. =20 If the piano is poorly scaled and the lower part of the tenor bridge = coincides with F3 and looks a bit like a hockey stick, then move up the = scale a bit and take A3, A4, A5, or from a point where the inharmonicity = numbers start to drop a bit. Tune from that point going up first and = then down from there using the direct tune method checking aurally as = you go. For smaller pianos I find that tuning perfect 4:2's down to = about B2 and perfect 6:3's the rest of the way usually works pretty = well. But the piano will generally tell you where it wants that = transition to be made. I find it is a pretty reliable and quick way of = working . David Love ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Farrell=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: October 22, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing Thanks for the input David. What I do usually is do my FAC, and then = sample 5 A's or whatever note, and often 5 of another note to test = octaves. I see how they vary and then choose appropriate DOB to get what = I want. The A measurement has (by far) the dominant effect on the tuning = calculation. I often measure all three A4 strings, and the middle A#4 = and the middle G#4 string and see what they look like. It is interesting = to look at these because often one of the notes will differ quite a bit = from the others. Remember, there is nothing magical about A4 when = choosing a note to measure for the FAC tuning calculation. A4 is simply = (ideally) a representative note from that area of the piano. Anyway, = after I adjust the DOB to get what I want, I start tuning from A0. One of my goals is to adjust my style and start tuning from A4 so that = I can incorporate adjustments on the fly. I say I have read all of Jim = Coleman's material - I have. But I have to admit that I have not = incorporated all of it into my daily tuning routine. I'm working on it! Terry Farrell =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Love=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:30 PM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing Terry: One other comment on the SATIII and the DOB. As Jim Coleman has = pointed out you can use the DOB on the fly, so to speak, adjusting it as = you go depending on the piano. If you do this, however, you must start = tuning from A4 outward. Changes in the DOB will have no effect on A4 = but will have an increasing effect as you go out. If you start tuning = at A0 and tune chromatically upward and discover that the octaves around = A3 need to be narrowed then the DOB will change the settings most of = those notes that you've already tuned. Going up from A4, of course, = would not be a problem. And just to emphasize that stretch settings are very piano = dependent, I tuned 6' Kawai grand this morning. The FAC numbers were = quite low, on the order of 6.7, 5.7, 5.8. This setting put C8 around = 31. I found that I had to increase the DOB to about +.3 to get the = amount of stretch I wanted. So it can definitely go both ways. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Farrell=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: October 21, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing Thanks for your comments David. I follow pretty much exactly what = you described in your post below when I tune. I usually test some sample = octaves all across the keyboard to get a feel for what I will be wanting = to do with the DOB. I have all of Jim Coleman's info and have studied it = extensively. When I said that I wonder what I should be doing with my = octaves, I was referring to the upper treble (as in your original post) = and was indicating that I know very little about upper treble stretch = theory - why some tuners stretch more than others, why some stretch a = big piano on a stage more than a small piano in a home. When techs are = talking about these various amounts of stretch, what are they doing with = the amount of beating in octaves and double and triple octaves way up in = the high treble? Are we talking only about putting a half or a quarter = bpm in some type of octave, or lots of beats or what? Any thoughts would = be welcome. Terry Farrell =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Love=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing As a general rule I am finding that small pianos require an = entry of -.5 on the DOB and as the pianos get bigger that number = decreases. But you can measure the stretch before you start by tuning a = double octave (after entering the FAC numbers and saving), and testing = aurally to see if it is where you want it. The SAT uses A4 as the fixed = point so keep that in mind when you choose your test double octave. I = usually try and test the double octave to not include any wound strings. = If the double octave is too wide, input a negative number on the DOB = and change notes (step up, step down) to implement the change. Test = again. When you get it where you want it go ahead and start tuning. = When tuning with the SAT I start in the tenor and go up (when tuning = aurally, I start from the temperament and go down). When I am done with = the treble I usually direct tune the bass as the machine sometimes has = problems across the break and I don't always agree with its choices for = stretch in the bass. Jim Coleman has made several contributions to the = list regarding use of the DOB. I recommend you search the archives and = check them out. =20 David Love=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Farrell=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: October 21, 2001 11:11 AM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing I would sure like to hear more on this topic. As a tuner still = on a steep learning curve, I wonder just what I should be doing with my = octaves, but I find that the SAT III is either right where I wish it to = be, or sometimes I do find that it seems to have calculated a tuning = with too much stretch, and I have to enter negative numbers in the DOB = to slow the beating down - occasionally quite a bit. Terry Farrell =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Love=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing My experience suggests that C8 at 43+ is not a conservative = stretch but a fairly healthy one. To my ear, I usually reduce the = stretch (on the SATIII via the DOB). On concert grands I seem to = prefer it a bit under 40. On smaller grands and uprights, in the mid = 30's. Of course the general scaling does make a difference. But = generally I find the standard setting on a SATIII over stretches. I am = curious what other people find. David Love=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David M. Porritt=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: October 21, 2001 7:40 AM Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing Bill: You've talked quite a bit of your "tempered octaves" but = as one who has seen everything from 2:1 octaves to outrageously = stretched octaves I don't know what kind of stretch you're talking = about. Could you give us some numbers so we can know what you mean by = tempered octaves? =20 For example, when I tune a Steinway D my C6 is stretched = to 5.06, C7 is 16.11, and C8 is 43.84. This is what I consider a = conservative tuning. What kind of numbers do you get? On any piano, = just measure your C6, 7, & 8 and tell us what model piano it is, and how = it stretches with your tempered octaves. That would be very = informative. Thanks, dave *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/21/01 at 7:19 AM Billbrpt@AOL.COM wrote: In a message dated 10/21/01 6:07:55 AM Central Daylight = Time, davidlovepianos@earthlink.net (David Love) writes:=20 That being said, if the pianist needs an altered = tuning to create excitement, he should practice more. It's always been my belief, as a piano technician that = the better prepared the piano, the better equipped the artist is. = Remember that I have not advocated *HT* as such for Jazz. To you, this = implies *altered* tuning which means something quite noticeably = different and thus creates an *interference* with what you do rather = than provide an enhancement.=20 I don't know if you can or have tried my EBVT but as I = have designed it (with Tempered Octaves), it is meant to enhance your = playing, not shock or disturb your musical sensibilities. It is meant = to provide definition, texture and clarity, not weird, jarring and = shocking dissonances. If the EBVT is still to *altered* for you, I = believe you might benefit from the Marpurg (also with my Tempered = Octaves system). I will give your piano an uncanny clean, crisp and = clear sound but absolutely will not create any distinction between keys. = Bill Bremmer RPT=20 Madison, Wisconsin _____________________________ David M. Porritt dporritt@mail.smu.edu Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 _____________________________ ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/e4/b3/43/79/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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