Unison Flatter than each Individual string?

[Robin Hufford]

David,
     Although I can see the point you make as to the ease of setting the A(4) by reading the machine, setting it by using "aural" methods is by no means masochistic nor in any degree as difficult as you suggest, nor should it be any basis for egotism as it is so utterly simple to do extremely well.    This area of  the tuning test is frequently scored at 100 percent as the examinees often easily produce a value for the A within the tolerance and have no points subtracted.  Generally, people that cannot do this readily  use the wrong reference tone, rely on only one reference tone, or, amazingly,  use no reference tone at all.
     As A(4) is not is not a harmonic of  F(3); that is the tenth below, then using a tenth to derive a reference tone is not the best or even acceptable practice and would indeed be masochistic.  The correct reference tone in which  an F is employed requires the use of a seventeenth below at F(2) which does have its fifth harmonic at A(4).  Similarly one could use D(2); D(3) or even D(1) or F(1), although these last two  would be a little far out,  any of the A's below A(4) and, a particularly good one,  the interval produced by two octaves and a minor seventh that is a 21st, by using B(1) which produces a loud obvious beat easily contrasted with the fork or the A(4).   I am sure I have not listed all of the possiblities here.  Using some of these reference tones and understanding which is wide and which are narrow makes it a simple, rapid matter to lay in the A(4) very accurately with respect to the fork and I see little archaic about it.
     There are many fine uses for an ETD of which I own a SAT II but the task of pitch transfer is not one, in my opinion, in which a great advantage can be obtained simply by substituting a machine in the place of the very easy, readily learned and executed "aural" technique.
Regards, Robin Hufford
David Ilvedson wrote:

> I would imagine tuning with a tuning fork/ear and tuning unisons as you go while setting the temperment would be a quite challenge mainly because you would have to retune 3 strings when making the inevitable adjustments.  Also If those unisons aren't solid they will affect what you are hearing with your aural checks.  Tuning with a ETD/ear and tuning unisons as you set the temperment is no problem what so ever, even though you still have to retune 3 strings when making changes.  Why, because you're letting the machine do the roughing of the temperment and using you ear and the machine to make fine adjustments when they count.  The advantage I really like is when investigating a aural problem.  The ETD can quickly find the note(s) that have drifted with out wasting time and more importantly give you info about how the piano is reacting to the tuning.  I always go back over an area I've already tuned and with ETD and may well find it needs a wholesale slight adjustment because, !
> for instance, every note has drifted up in reaction to the tuning.  This is hard for the ear to decern unaided as many of the aural checks are still in the ballpark.  For the life of me I can't understand why good aural tuners are not taking advantage of a fabulous tuning tool, the ETD.  You don't have to leave you ears at home when you use one...
>
> Example:
>
> With a tuning fork, the "aural" tuner strikes the fork and roughs in the piano's note to the fork.  Then, for instance,  probably checks with a 10th interval between the piano's F-A and the piano's F and the fork's A. Makes adjustments to the piano's A4 string and with equal beating of these two 10ths', the note is absolutely in tune with the fork.  Is this not archaic?  With a ETD you tune the note until the lights/pattern stops and you have and absolute A440 or whatever pitch you want in a few moments.  Is this ETD tuned note any less of a tuned note?  I got to feel there's a lot of ego involved in tuning aurally with a tuning fork...that and masochism...
>
> Conrad, please overnight me the usual...
>
> David I.
>
> ----- Original message ---------------------------------------->
> From: Tom Servinsky <tompiano@gate.net>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Received: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:21:40 -0400
> Subject: Re: Unison Flatter than each Individual string?
>
> >Susan,
> >The pros and cons of single mute tuning:
> >First the pros..
> >a. Your unisons will improve dramatically vs tuning with a strip mute.  When
> >you realize that you cannot go further on in the tuning until the unison is
> >absolutely clean you pay more attention to those pesky details
> >b. The octave stretch, believe it or not, is better calibrated when you are
> >using the result of 3 tuned strings  of a unison vs 1 tune string.
>
> >Cons:
> >a. At first, single mute tuning requires a great deal of energy and
> >attention.
> >Until this technique is mastered tuning time will be increased. However once
> >you have become accustomed to this technique tuning time will resemble that
> >of a strip mute tuning.
>
> >I must admit I enjoy single mute tuning if I have the right instrument and
> >when I have ample time to enjoy the ride.  The result usually pays for
> >itself.  However I also will admit I wouldn't dare nor care to do this with
> >a majority of the instruments I see.
> >I agree with Ted using the technique as a "refresher" course.  Personally I
> >think it forces you to be a better tuner.
> >Tom Servinsky, RPT
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Susan Kline" <sckline@attbi.com>
> >To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 1:39 AM
> >Subject: Re: Unison Flatter than each Individual string?
>
> >> At 08:02 PM 8/19/2002 -0400, Tom wrote:
> >> >As far as the single mute technique of tuning is concerned, it does yield
> >> >better results. It also forces you to be much more critical with your
> >> >unisons when they become focal points throughout the temperament.
> >>
> >>
> >> This is getting intriguing. Ted Sambell talked about taking one month
> >> per year to tune without the strip, as a way remember how to keep
> >> unisons really tight and stable, but I've never tried it in a
> >> methodical way. I feel that the strip gives good service in pitch
> >> raises, when multiple passes are involved. I only strip the middle
> >> section, and as I rob felt from the end, the strip gets shorter and
> >> shorter, till it's only about an octave and a half long. I thought
> >> this was a bad thing, but maybe not.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the good posts, Tom and David.
> >>
> >> Susan
> >>
> >>