Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?

[Alan R. Barnard]

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Yabut....

Dr. Sanderson, inventor of the SAT, recommends 20% on wound strings, 33% =
for the first six plain-wire unisons, then 25% to the top.=20

Since others have success with slightly different percentages, it seems =
(and is interesting) that the exact percentage or location in the piano =
is not all that critical a factor ...=20

Alan Barnard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Kevin E. Ramsey=20
  To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
  Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:35 PM
  Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


  Well, glad I caught this posting. To answer your question; 20% is =
perfect in the bass for me, because I strip mute the bass, tune all the =
single notes, and then pull out the strip and tune unisons. However, =
when I get to the plain wire strings, I'm pitch raising unisons as I go =
up. Now, if a piano has all the notes on one side of the note you're =
tuning already pulled up to pitch, then a 25% overpull is the =
appropriate amount for the entire piano. (With the SAT, the trick is =
knowing where to sample them). The only time 33% overpull is used is =
when you're pitch raising the single strings without pulling in the =
unisons as you go. And even then, the way to do it is to tune the =
temperament at a 33% overpull, and as you go up stretch the octaves =
until they have a beat in them, leveling off at you get to the top. Two =
whole different techniques, two whole different overpull percentages. =
Perhaps I'm wrong, or someone will argue that I'm wrong, and that's =
fine. I've just done it that way, and it worked out almost perfectly. I =
prefer using a SAT, because that guarantees me that I'll be within two =
cents without having to work hard at all.=20
      But, 33% percent is necessary if you do it the "old" way, the way =
people did it before ETDs. I don't think it would ever be right if you =
were using an ETD and pulling in unisons as you go.=20

      Hope that clears it up.=20
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Farrell=20
    To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
    Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:56 AM
    Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


    You didn't answer my question!  :-)   Yes, my norm is to do a two =
pass pitch raise for anything more than 60 or 70 cents flat (although on =
this Winter, I did in fact pitch raise it in one pass - don't tell =
anyone!). But that was not the question. Let's say we have a piano that =
is 30 cents flat. The tune unisons as you go approach would suggest that =
something like 20% overpull in bass, 25% in tenor, and 33% overpull in =
treble areas is appropriate to get you to target pitch. If you strip =
mute the piano for your pitch raise and only tune the center strings, =
then pull out the mute felt and tune unisons, how might that affect your =
selected overpull percentages? Thanks.

    Terry Farrell
     =20
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: "Kevin E. Ramsey" <ramsey@extremezone.com>
    To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:04 AM
    Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


    Terry, that's a good question. Most of the time when I see something =
like your high performance Winter that's that flat, I figure it would be =
safer to do two pitch raises. I feel better spreading that much tension =
out over the whole instrument rather than loading up one section tuning =
from bass to treble. I always strip mute no matter what I'm doing, it =
just seems easier to pull it out than to move mutes constantly.=20
        If you were to try pitch raising one of these things that much =
and hit it right on the money in one pass, I don't think you'd have much =
luck because the different sections of the piano are going to react =
differently depending on the thickness of the plate and stiffness of the =
soundboard, and other intangibles. You could certainly get it pretty =
close though.=20
        I would strip it off and do two really quick pitch raises, the =
first just slightly higher than in tune, pull in the unisons, and then =
do an equally quick regular pitch raise, then fine tune. I don't like =
replacing strings in spinets too much myself. I remember trying to do it =
the way you mentioned a few times when I was starting out, carefully =
recalculating the single wire flatness for a 33% overpull as I went up. =
I pulled in the unisons, and it was close enough to get there in a =
second pass, but it was more work than it was worth, I thought.=20
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Farrell=20
      To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
      Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 5:18 AM
      Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


      Hello Kevin. I was raising the pitch of a massive high performance =
Winter spinet yesterday a full half-step. And I was thinking that it =
would go faster if I were to strip mute the piano, PR just the middle =
strings, then go back a do the unisons. Do you do that in the plain wire =
sections? How do you find that approach affects your overpull percentage =
needed? Thanks.

      Terry Farrell
       =20
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: "Kevin E. Ramsey" <ramsey@extremezone.com>
      To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
      Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:30 PM
      Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


      Joe, glad it works for you, however, I find that the bass requires =
a twenty percent over-pull. Perhaps our methods differ; during a pitch =
raise, I tune the single bass strings and one string of each bi-chord =
first, then I pull out the strip and tune unisons by ear.  I'm also =
tuning the bass first, ala Sanderson. When I do a pitch raise, I do it =
with a SAT (Gets you real close, real fast), so I do the bass first. I =
can understand the 10% overpull thing only if I've already brought the =
rest of the piano up first.=20
          Please clarify.
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Joe And Penny Goss=20
        To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
        Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:46 PM
        Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


        Kevin,
        If the bass is about 30 cents flat I want to raise the note =
about three cents sharp ( about 10% ) of pitch. So with a SATlll that =
raises the pitch 25%  that would result in too much over pull for me so =
I will set the over pull for 12 cents and roll the program into the =
machine.
        I take only one measurement at A2 to arrive at my over pull. =
Works very well for me.
        I use the 25% in the tenor and about C4 the 30% to the top then =
retune.
        On pianos 25% or less flat or sharp I use the Verituner 100 and =
its 10% bass, 30% tenor,
        and 36% treble and retune.
        Joe Goss
        imatunr@srvinet.com
        www.mothergoosetools.com
          ----- Original Message -----=20
          From: Kevin E. Ramsey=20
          To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
          Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:40 PM
          Subject: Re: Pitch Raises ... Multiple Passes?


          >
          >     All wound strings: 1/5 (Example: You test 10 notes, or =
so, and find
          them
          > about 30 cents flat. You would set your ETD to +6 cents =
sharp and tune
          those
          > strings to that setting.)


              Here's another little brain saver:  What if you're pitch =
raising a piano and want to do a 20% overpull in the bass, and it's, =
say, 28 cent's flat. (let's see, one fifth of twenty eight would be =
......... ah........ ah........) =20

              Take 28, and double it for 56. Move the decimal point over =
to the left one place.=20

               5.6 is 1/20th of 28.=20

              At least, that's how I do it.=20



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