OT Tuning "It"

[Bec and John]

Hi Sarah,

You didn't understand what I wrote correctly, however, I don't want to 
pollute the list with too much OT stuff so I will respond once and any 
further responses to me I'll respond off the list.

What I was saying was: what someone may believe and say to be right and 
wrong does not inherently hold the title of a judgement. For instance, 
in the case where someone who believes the Bible reads in it that lying 
is wrong, they may look at their friend and see them lying and 
understand that it is wrong. Although it usually does result in it, it 
does not mean they have automatically become a judge. The judge-less 
alternative in this case is the person who is a messenger of a 
judgement from whom they believe to be the Judge.

I'm sorry if this wasn't (or isn't!) clear.

I am happy to respond to your other points.

I think what you mean to say is Old Testament (specifically mosaic) 
"law" is obsolete, not that the OT itself is obsolete. This is a 
complicated subject, though it is important to say that those OT laws 
which no longer apply still clearly define the heart of God's 
expectation from his people - which is 100% relevant to the NT.

For instance, you can say it is not the law anymore to build protection 
around the roof of your house so no one falls off (Duet. 25:8), however 
the heart of the passage still applies in NT thinking (love your 
neighbour). What is the heart of the law in verse 5? What I'm bringing 
up here is not really intended to be an authoritative Biblical 
statement about the issue, rather a method of looking at the OT and an 
important reflective question.

In addition, it is also important to say that although the NT doesn't 
mention transsexuality specifically does not mean it doesn't have laws 
that apply to it.

For instance, regarding abortion. The Bible doesn't speak of abortion, 
but if someone believes that the unborn is a human they can only then 
conclude the Bible would condemn it - not that it condemns abortion, 
but rather the ending of a human life. ** Now I'm not trying to bring 
up a controversial issue here, but rather use it as an example of the 
point. ** So, as an important and reflective question, does the Bible 
say anything about human behaviour that would apply to transsexual 
behaviour?

If you are interested, I am able to contact various conservative 
Biblical scholars and see if they can give (or point to) a good 
discussion on the matter. I'll have to get back to you about that.

-- John


> Hi John,
>
> Good grief!
>
> Let's see if I understand this, because I'm admittedly a bit slow at 
> times.
> If I understand you, you're saying that I should recognize that you 
> may in
> fact be morally WRONG to live as a man (educated guess), but I should 
> not
> judge whether you are or whether you are not.  I should also not judge
> whether others are morally wrong to "choose" to judge others for making
> wrong choices.
>
> Seems rather contorted to me.
>
> Are you trying in a round-about way to imply that Rob's client (and 
> possibly
> "others" on this list <ahem>) have made WRONG choices in their lives, 
> while
> at the same time distancing yourself from any appearance that you have
> committed the transgression of actually judging someone???
>
> But let's shed the politically correct nonjudgment thang...  Let's be
> real...  Let's not tiptoe around the big white elephant wearing the 
> lavender
> party hat...
>
> Exactly what were Rob's client's "wrong choices?"  I don't understand.
> Perhaps you could spell it out to me in some sort of detail, because 
> from
> where I'm sitting, I don't see that his client did anything wrong.  She
> called a piano tech to have her piano serviced.  When Rob arrived, she 
> was
> well behaved.  When Rob completed his work, she paid him.  Perhaps her
> transgression was that she might have overestimated the age of the 
> piano?
> Or was it that it was somewhat tacky to tip?  (Some people think it is,
> anyway.)  Perhaps she should have warned Rob over the telephone, "I 
> must
> tell you before you come out that I am a transsexual.  I also own a 
> blue
> car, and my mother's name is Rita.  I just thought you needed to know 
> these
> things about me before deciding whether to come out."  I don't 
> understand.
> What did she do wrong?  Whatever did she do to Rob that was so 
> horrible?
> Exist?   Hmmmmmm?????  Enquiring minds want to know.
>
> And if it's some Biblical thang, please, PLEASE be specific.  WHERE is 
> it
> codified in the Bible (New Testament, please, since Old Testament law 
> became
> obsolete with the New and Everlasting Covenant) that Rob's client did
> anything wrong -- made WRONG choices, or whatever?
>
> Anyone?
>
> Give me a single Biblical verse.
>
> Anywhere in the book.
>
> And if ya' still wants to quote Deut 22:5 (even though it's obsolete), 
> I'm
> going to ask you whether you think the other obsolete passages in
> Deuteronomy 22 should also be observed.  (Hint:  You're all going to 
> hell in
> a handbasket!)  AND I'm going to ask you to find an operational 
> definition
> of "male" and "female" somewhere in the Bible, against which Deut 22:5 
> can
> be applied, 'cuz I don't know where it is.
>
> And if ya' wants to argue that transsexualism is a new phenomenon, 
> think
> again.  It's a phenomenon as old as civilization, and quite likely 
> older.
> It's only the terminology that's recent.  In Jesus' time, transsexuals 
> were
> one of several types of "eunuch."  So please tell me where in the 
> Bible it
> says that eunuchs were bad people or made WRONG choices.  PLEASE!
>
> There MUST be some sort of statute in the Bible somewhere, that all you
> folks are using to condemn the transgender community.  Perhaps it's in 
> the
> book of Secrets, which of course wouldn't actually be *printed* in the
> Bible, because it's supposed to be a secret.  Or perhaps it's 
> somewhere in
> Commandments 11-20?
>
> Please, let's be specific.  I've had this stuff waved in my face for 
> four
> decades, but nobody YET has been willing to show me where any of this 
> stuff
> is written.  It doesn't quite seem fair, does it.
>
> Patiently awaiting an explanation for over 4 decades,
> Sarah
>
> PS By way of reciprocating, I'm more than happy to research the 
> scripture
> that pertains to judging others.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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