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> >
> >
> >Ric wrote
> Lacquer DOES ruin a hammer from the perspective of any
> > future needling-up. But of course it does not <<ruin>> a hammer from
> > some other perspective.
> >
> >*It ruins the style hammers you"re using perhaps but Ruin implies to
> make useless. I have a lot of lacquerd hammers out there with lacquer
> in them sounding just grand. None of these hammers are made in the
> same fashion as the ones you are accustomed to. I'm just trying to
> make the distinction.
> .*
Dale... I dont mean to be rude hear... but I am not going to argue
sematics back and forth with you when I have already twice gone out of
my way to qualifiy very precisely the use and valid domain for the word
"ruin".
>> I get your point here. I've gone out of my way mine as well. It's easy
to read something here & & misconstrue it unless the distinctions are clearly
& frequently made, which I've been doing.
Your sentence above is in essense nothing more the a repeat of my last
two comments on this point, with a certain degree of apparrent
defensiveness added in.
I say again... lacquering hammers will ruin then with respect to any
eventual needling up attempts later. And that goes for all hammers, tho
perhaps that is less important for hammers that never had any tension to
release to begin with.
>>>>> Ric--You and I obviously will not come to an agreement about what
tensionin in a felt hammers is because of your above statement. I've gone out of
my way twice to clarify it.
This is not in itself a wide sweeping criticism against useing lacquer
perse... it is exactly what it says it is... a criticism of one
particular mis-use of lacquer.
. >>>I'm not defensive I'm frustrated in trying to communicate a concept
revolving around the word tension,so we could get on to something else.
>_I've heard lots and lots of voicing classes through the years...and
> tried just about any trick in the book I dont find that you can
> increase power by useing lacquer.... you can increase volume...
> loudness. But thats a different matter._
> _ >> Please define power_
>
Difficult to define precisely... but it is a more encompasing concept
then loudness.... I get the sensation that it sort of like what happens
when you add mass to a hammer and dont change anything else. You are not
really making the hammer louder and brighter as you are making it louder
and bigger. Sorry if words fail me here... but the effects are
different, and I am certainly not the only one to notice.
>>Yes I have done experiments as weel & nticed this. I think it get
louder and bigger because of the increase in the fundamental frequency becoming
more dominant, With adding weight all the other higher parials seem to shift
down in the spectrum but still are carried by farther due to the stonger
fundamsntal.
tively>
> We dont use heat pressed hammers... but they do require needling.
> *>> You certainly do. It isn't just pressure that makes the Renner
> style hammer densified. I've seen the Wurzen felt. It's quite a soft a
> springy felt & to get it to the configuration of density you work with
> requires both.
> *
Well... I'll let you argue with the manufactures. I am not actually
there when they are produced... but I am informed these are not heat
pressed. They term the process cold pressing. Certainly are not the
kind of heat pressed hammers we've run into from earlier on in Japan.
>> I appreciated Ray Negrons post about clarifying what cold press means.
Perhaps they don't need heat to get the glue to set but every other maker I know
uses some & No not like Japanese /Asian hammers
>
> > These extremes of heat & pressure also work against the way felt is
> > made. The springy wool is now made unspringy or less resilience.
>
There is no extreme heat being used. Felting itself makes wool less
resilient...
>> That's what I've been saying as well.
> heck you can felt down to a damned hard block of wool if
you carry on long enough.
>> Agreed. that brand is the Petrified felt Hammer company. Seen many
> I'll defer to David Stanwood and Andre on how hammer felt is made... but
> the pressure bit is kind of a hand in hand thing with the felting process.
> *The pressure I'm speaking of happens in the press
> *
And just how is this pressure in conflict with the felting process in
general.
> It is in conlict only in extremes & that has always been my objection.
Where I & many others take issue is that having to needle any hammer 100 times
as counter productive & intuitive to the way felt is made as well as hammers
& tone
> ....>>>Ok Tension means stress & stretch or pull right? Compression
> means compaction or densification right?
> Now I want to make a statement that you can prove for yourself.
> /_The Ronsen hammers is the most tensioned hammer in the world._/
> & No I'm not a salesman.
Tension goes in more then one direction Dale. Tho Ronsens may (tho I
can not confirm this) have more of this in one particular direction then
any other hammer... that hardly makes them the most tensioned hammers in
the world.
>> Perhaps we'll continue to disagree about this (tension) but consider that
felt can be come so stretched it can rip across the crown during Mnaufacture.
Would you call that extreme tension in the felt? As I define tension ,it is.
Thats all I've been trying to say. I didn't even say it was the whole story.
I'd like oto get farther in our discussion of hammers to increse my own
understanding & perhaps others.
> If the felt on your preferred hammer is really stretched &
> tensioned, as you keep referring to,then if you should be able to cut
> the hammer open from the strike point to the molding with a razor& it
> should immediately & dramitically bloom open. Especially in the Bass &
> tenor hammers.
> This is exactly what happens with the Ronsen hammers. All of the
> hammers Ronsen makes will do this but the Wurzen felt most of all.
> I've been at this for years now. I've cut open all kinds of hammers &
> I don't believe the phenomena you refer to as tension is what your
> using to get tone it's the compaction or compression. Most hammers
> will blomm open to some degree but it's not usually dramtic. Isaac
> hammers will also do this to some degree.
> The point is that a stretched elastic felt around a hammer molding
> should equal incresed springiness & it does.
> Also the hammer your using is a _/fine hammer/_ & gets a fine tone
> but I do not believe it is under much tension as I've expressed
> it,It's under compaction & the inherent springiness of the felt is
> your ally invoicing & I know that we agree on this.
Sure... if you want to call that compaction go ahead... but seems to me
that when a compacted peice of felt is stretched around a hammer
moulding it is bound to have more tensions in more directions then a
less compacted piece of felt that is strectched perhaps more in the
single direction around the molding.
>> Maybe your right. I did say compaction & a better word is compression. If
the felt has legitimate compression then it should have a spring back
characteristic. Can it be proved? If so then this has the effect of the battery
needling your speaking of.
In anycase... the fact that needling up actually works for tensioned
hammers, and apparently works best for felt of a certain density and
quality (read wool strand thickness and consistancy...and probably a few
other things as well...) pressed at at certain degree of pressue. You
simply can not get that increase in power when needling up the Ronsens I
am accustomed too... (I have installed some sets that were produced
about 25 years ago).
The Ronsen hammer these days is evolved to a whole different level. We
used them way back as well & the hammer today is a different variety. They, in
anycase... wouldnt respond thus. In fact
over stressed Royal George hammers would react more needling up then
those Ronsens did... but then the Ronsens (those in any case) were not
made for this purpose.
>. I believe that is true acorrding to Rays recent post.
>
Regards --Dale
Cheers
RicB
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