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In a message dated 5/11/2004 12:15:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no writes:
Erwinspiano@aol.com wrote:
> >that this rebounding ability on a high quality hammer is reduced by
> >lacquering.
>
> *To me This certainly seems to me to be the misinformation of this
> thread but if you wish.... If so then a hammer made with a good felt
> but is not stiff enough or to springy for the tone desired then a 5-1
> lacquer acetone solution ,or whatever, will stiffen the felt & improve
> its rebound rate.*
>
> On the other hand, it might be possible that on a hammer with a
> >bad felt quality with excessive inner friction may be stabilized
> to a better
> >level by lacquering.
>
> It seems logic
>>> You know what the real problem is here Ric .I'm attempting to explain &
derive meaning from the words Bernard stated from the point of a hammer that
is starting out to soft or loosing to much to "internal friction"(his words)
which does mean its spring rate is tooo low. This is what he's refering to.
Or perhaps that it doesn't have enough.Perhaps you could enlighten us.
Whatever. The hammer is spending too much time on the string right?. Low
rebound rate. I get it how bout you?
I also get that in your mind you don't ever use lacquer on anything & your
always thinking from the point of a denser pressed hammer or tensioned as you
say & yes i think your use of the word is in my opinion incorrect &
mis-leading. I've explained that & you don't get it.
Be that as it may. But I'm not being defensive about the use of lacquer.
I'm simply tring to explain how I think it works based on a good deal of
experience.
Grin... I dont get this at all... on the one hand you reject Bernards
reasoning as misinformation, and then when he turns around and uses
the flip side of the same logic its perfectly ok. You cant really have
it both ways me thinks.
...... Me thinks Your twisting it
Certainly lacquer application reduces the rebounding ability of a high
quality (tensioned) hammer.
>> He didn't use your words. For clarity you mean densified hammer
If you read Bernards paragraph
disspationatly, he is only saying that internal friction plays an
important role in how much energy is lost to the strings, and that
lacquer will impede that internal friction. A direct consequence of
reducing a hammers resiliency with lacquer that I see no point in trying
to deny. I am sure you are not suggesting that a hammer that requires
needling should recieve lacquer to improve its sound now are you ?
>> Your twisting it again. Once again coming from the point of a good felt
but pressed to soft or to soft for the tone desired, as Bernard seems to be
describing & (I do want to try be clear). If the hammers too soft I want it to
be stiffened to increase the rebound rate.
So yes if you juice the kind of denser hammer you use then yes you will
definitely reduce it's resiliency.
If were talking lacquer , in my mind it for the most part excludes using
it on the type of hammer your fond of. OK
Try seeing things from the point of view I'm describing it'll make it easier
Neither that lacquer is for hammers of <<bad felt quality>> only ? Of
course not.
The only point one can make here is to require Bernard to more closely
specifiy what he means by <<high quality felt>> as relating to
hammers. Obviously he is talking tensioned hammers,
>>Its Not obvious. & tension means compression. If you can keep saying it
wrong so can I.
and not simply out
of hand condemning softer hammers as <<bad quality>>. And just as
obviously this all puts us argueing sematics again.
>> I didn't take it as condemning. That's your interpetation.
When it's not convenient for you it's semantics. I've explained it thoroughly
If that is your
point Dale.... to require people to not use words like <<ruin>> or
<<high quality / bad quality>> regardless of what qualifiers are (or
are not included) because you find the use of these words somehow
offensive to the discussion... then why dont you just say so ?
>> What I have said is that I find your words are at times inaccurate & I've
tried to clarify why I think so. Talk to hammer makers about tension &
compression. You obviously won't hear it from me.
All I see
coming clearly through is a tenacious need to defend the use of lacquer,
in the face of a non existant attack on that process.
>>>>I'm tried to respond only to statements by you & others that I don't
find to be true. Myself & others have stated this voicing technique to be
legitimate & frankly it has a longer tradition & history than that of needling
overly densified hammers which, is really a more recent modern invention & tool of
piano manufactures to cut voicing cost.
The end result however is a world full of brittle sounding pianos that all
sound the same. However it does give the voicing techn. a lifetime of
oppurtuntities to sell real hammers & or learn multiple styles of voicing techniques.
> *>> May I submit that the Inner friction of felt has always been a
> fairly esoteric & small consideration to the discussion of hammers
> even though it is a know factor & frankly to me personally not very
> useful.*
Well.... our personal feelings and thoughts dont really matter much to
way of things. The contribution of inner friction of felt to energy
transfer in piano hammers is what it is for reasons that dont have
anything to do with what we want or dont. Tho I dont pretend to know how
significant a factor this is...
>> Exactly my point Ric, Neither does any body else. So how useful can it be?.
I certainly dont have any problem
including it into the discussion.
>> Me either if it's useful
It seems tho.. that you write off its
significance altogether... which would mean you have some knowledge of
this internal friction process that you can share with us in defence of
that claim. Which I am sure we would all benifit from.
. I'd explain it but it might sound defensive. I've said all I need to. I'd
be willing ot hear from others as to whether or not this discussion has any
merit in going further. For now I've said all I need to that would be productive.
> Dale Erwin
>
>
> >
> >regards,
> >
> >Bernhard
>
Cheers
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