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Hi Dave, Andre
Are we having a slight miscommunication problem or what? At least to me=20
it seems so.
If different soundboard systems didn't have different designs & hence=20
different mechanical impedance we could design a hammer that would work=20
perfectly well in every piano without a needle stitch or drop of voicing so=
lution.=20
Now that's a fact certain sure & simple.
I think we are saying similar things or perceiving things differently fro=
m=20
a kinesthetic sense or by experience or by training. Nevertheless. As one=20
who has used a variety of different types & brands of hammers I have found=20=
that=20
certain types of pianos require more felt stiffness/density (or low tension=
=20
high tension) than others depending on the mechanical impedance of the boar=
d.=20
For example I find Mason Hamlin pianos in general in need of hammer that=20
is higher tensioned or a low one that is brought stiffer with solutions to=20
really get the piano to speak. I find this true of Mason As & BBs. I believ=
e it=20
partly due to the fact that Mason & Hamlins BBs typically have boards that=20
have higher than average thickness in there panels. Many old BBS I've seen=20=
are=20
.400 thou. thick& many model As commonly .375 thou.
Your typical N.Y. stwy B for example I've seen as thin as ,325 but more=20
commonly in the .340 to .350 ish. All this to say that these design differe=
nces=20
coupled with the effects of string scaling & bearing have a definite say=20
in how you voice your hammers.
I like Andres description of the person getting older as an analogy to an=
=20
older soundboard
as seen below but in my opinion what Hes' saying is the same thing David i=
s=20
saying but from a different angle.
Yes I agree that the personality is there without as much force and so=20
in the case of the older soundboard it won't tolerate be driven by higher=20
tensioned/harder hammers especially Abels or hard Renners. I've heard many=20=
a=20
flat Stwy board that sounded quite sweet with lower tension/less hard hamme=
rs.=20
Yes ,a good voicer can make many different sets of hammers work on a given=20
piano but is that hammer the best choice given the age and condition and=20
tempermental -ism of the "personality" due to age.
For example would I wish to use Renner blues on an older Stwy O/L from the=
=20
twenties with mariginal crown & bearing. NO I wouldn't. But Yes ,I could=20
probably get a sound that was quite good, but why would I spend a day needl=
ing if=20
I could install Ronsens Wurzens/Abel vfg or Bacon felt hammers & be done in=
=20
an hour & have what fit that older personality more accurately with less=20
fuss? I can't think of a reason. I beleive this another way of clarifying w=
hat=20
David was trying to say.
I agree with Andres comments about felt completley & I'll add only one=20
caveat & that is that It can be more than felt preference but also the=20
preference based on how that felt is pressed & I'll leave it at that less t=
he worms=20
escape the can again.!
Just my two cents. Good post Andre
Dale Erwin
=20
I do not agree with you. A given soundboard has a 'certain'=20
personality, and the personality will always be the same, except that=20
the physical 'force' of that personality will diminish, just like with=20
older people : their personality is intact but their physical strength=20
has gone down over the years.
When the crown of an older soundboard had lost its major power, the =20
sound gets thinner and weaker, and with physical 'distortions', and =20
that is what we call 'older'. The character however is still there but =20
maybe less 'predominant' and with the shortcomings of old age like =20
brittle bones, weaker organs, and alzheimers.
There are certain aspects that could 'amplify' that weaker personality,=20
and those aspects are for instance new strings and/or new hammers.
Just amplifying that older 'personality' actually creates the problem=20
we, as technicians, always encounter because we just energize the voice=20
of the old personality, but not the muscle and bone structure, so to=20
speak.
In other words : if we install a granite hard hammer on an old piano,=20
we give it a granite like loud old voice and if we install softer=20
hammers we hear a renewed but velvety old voice.
Through that voice we hear a more, or less, amplified personality, but=20
also the amplified weaknesses of an older body. In yet more other words=20
: installing new hammers is just a cosmetic operation. The eye lashes=20
maybe short or long, but unfortunately it is still very clear that this=20
lovely old lady is ninety years old, whatever the well known possible=20
disguises.
There is however an other factor in play here :
As I explained before, there are soundboards (personalities) which=20
predominantly 'show' higher overtones. Bechstein soundboards are like=20
that : their treble section is usually rather brilliant, where their =20
bass section is usually 'under developed'. In that case, when we =20
install new hammers (may they be hard or soft) we have to use a voicing =20
technique where we put the emphasis on getting out the lower partials =20
as much as possible. With Steinways it is the opposite : not creating a =20
hammer crown which causes the instrument to give more overtones is like =20
putting a bag over the head : it sounds poorly.
Then there is the choice of hammers, or actually the choice of hammer=20
felt :
Roughly speaking we have the four major hammer felts we all know : the=20
Wurzen predominantly used by Renner (about 90%), the VFG felt=20
predominantly used by Abel (about 90%), the Royal George felt (of late)=20
we find on millions of Yamaha's, and the Bacon felt used primarily in=20
the USA.
All four felts are made of sheep's wool but have been fabricated in=20
different ways, and all four have totally different characteristics,=20
whether we like it or not.
They may resemble each other because they all come from sheep's wool, =20
but their manufacturing process is quite different. The difference is =20
what we hear, and that difference is what we choose. What makes this =20
difference an issue here, is that some felts are used mainly in the USA =20
and some other felts (Royal george, Wurzen and VFG) are used all over =20
the world. In other words: we share a common felt experience and we =20
base our opinions and personal taste on this experience.
Personal taste is something we can not really discuss, well grounded=20
opinions are another matter and that is one of the difficulties here on=20
this list : are we talking about personal taste or are we talking about=20
scientifically based opinions?
The four felts I mentioned all have a different characteristic, despite=20
their common material basis. The way these felts were made determine=20
their characteristics, and those characteristics are factual elements=20
we can determine and classify. The way these felts sound is a totally=20
different subject and that usually leads to misunderstanding and =20
unnecessary friction. It is not wise to discuss 'beauty' or 'ugliness'.
>
> As far as how long a hammer will last, unlacquered versus lacquered;=20
> the
> issue seems to be how much lacquer and how it is applied. A weak
> stiffening solution probably doesn't do much to effect the life of the
> hammer. But since lacquer gets harder and more brittle over time, a
> heavily lacquered hammer will not last in terms of controllability as
> long as an unlacquered hammer, assuming it hasn't been needled to=20
> death.
To get down to the core of lacquered versus unlacquered is like this :=20
a lacquered wool piano hammer has fibers which have been fused together=20
into an almost (in varying degrees) unmovable non-elastic matter by a=20
binding force called hammer hardener.
This piano hammer consists of a wooden molding, a staple, and a mass of=20
fibers which originally were resilient, with an elastic capacity which=20
through the appliance of hammer hardening have clotted into an=20
non-resilient and un-elastic wool mass we can compare with a very sober=20
palet (all this depending of how much hardener was used).
An unlacquered wool piano hammer has a natural resiliency (in varying=20
degrees) and this elastic force we can use in the process of=20
intonation. It is like the use of a multi colored palet (all this=20
depending of how much pressure was used).
Get this:
Crystallized or more or less non-resilient matter, like a felt covered=20
(but hardened) drum stick, creates a 'certain' non-or- less-resilient=20
sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher overtones. The=20
spectrum is poor because of the lack of resilience.
Non-crystallized or more or less resilient matter, like a (non =20
hardened) felt covered drum stick, creates a 'certain' more-or =20
less-resilient sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher and =20
lower overtones. The spectrum is rich because of the present =20
resilience.
That is literally the difference between a lacquered hammer and a non=20
lacquered hammer, and that is a fact.
Which hammer you like is not my business.
Andr=E9 Oorebeek
>
>
> David Love
> davidlovepianos@comcast.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
> Behalf Of Richard Brekne
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:04 AM
> To: ilvey@sbcglobal.net; Pianotech
> Subject: Re: Evidence of overlacquered hammers
>
> ...That went to claims about soundboard condition dictating
> this or that kind of hammer. I dissagreed ...
=20
=20
Erwins Pianos Restorations=20
4721 Parker Rd.
Modesto, Ca 95357
209-577-8397
Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales
www.Erwinspiano.com
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From: antares <antares@euronet.nl>
Subject: Re:hammers and soundboards
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 21:37:26 +0200
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