This is a multipart message in MIME format ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Fascinating post Andre.... It might interest you to know that when I got of WIT in 1974 and= went home to Minot, North Dakota. I was charging the highest= fee of $20 a tuning amongst my competition. David Ilvedson Original message From: antares To: Pianotech Received: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:43:25 +0100 Subject: Re: working with ETD's versus..... no more really... On 6-feb-05, at 3:54, David Andersen wrote: If one insists that an aural tuning is better, so be it, I prefer= to say that some aural tuners, probably like David Andersen, are really= fantastic tuners, but that it takes a whole lot of energy and stress to produce 5= of those tunings a day. Working with a near perfect ETD is far less stressful and costs= far less energy. Again, the unisons are, in my opinion, more important, and so is= the voicing. See, I choose for an economical use of my time with a maximum= result. friendly greetings from ANDR=C9 OOREBEEK Absolutely. Agree 100%. If I was tuning 5 pianos a day, I would= definitely look at the Verituner. By the grace of God, I don't have to do= that these days; just 2 or at the most 3 pianos a day, with other= interesting work thrown in. Alright, I 've been thinking about dizz..... I don't think that there is an ongoing war between ETD'ers and= Aural'ers. The time has past and is gone, where older aural tuners scorned= technicians with sophisticated equipment. I think I am right when I say that we -mostly- all agree that= only the very best ETD's can easily match the very best tunings= made by aural tuners. If one does not and can not agree with this, then I consider this= otherwise highly interesting and informative discussion one= sided and invalid. I do not that think - I - would spend more= time on this issue, because 1. all my critical customers are= extremely satisfied with my ETD tuning and 2. for me personally= it is out of the question to start all over again with aural= tuning, especially so because I have had it and I have done that= for the greater part of my professional life. Again, I wish to bring forward here, that I would insist that any= tuning student should learn to tune aurally and then tune at= least 10 000 pianos without even looking at an ETD. If that tuner then chooses to keep on tuning aurally, or chooses= to buy an ETD..... fine, does it matter? are we at least trying= a create a free society, or what? Which brings me to the fact that you David (Andersen) have the= choice of tuning no more than 2 or at the most 3 pianos. I think it could be enlightening to some here, that there is= something else in play here : There are some huge differences between the USA and at least the= Netherlands (and other European countries). What differences am I talking about? 1. there is the fact that the tuners/technicians here in Holland= are divided in two groups : Those who are self employed, and those who work for a piano= store. Most of the tuners/technicians work for a piano store and have a= regular income with obligatory health insurance and reasonable= pension plans. Their income can never be fantastic because their employer needs= to make money too. Way in the past, like in the 19th and first halve of the 20th= century, those employed in a piano store, were living in= Dickensian conditions. They were forced to work 6 days a week,= had maybe just a few days a year vacation (or never), made very= long days and were forced to tune at the least 7 pianos every= day (outside the store). We know those stories. That changed in the second halve of the 20th century, after= WW-II. Socialistic ideas were very strong then and one began to form= unions. This happened all over the World, except in fascist= countries in general, or in places where people were (and still= are) brutalized and forced to stay poor for ever (like in some= African countries where greed and the most stupefying= selfishness prevails in the upper warrior clans). The profession of the Dutch piano tuners was placed under the= wings of the "Metal Union" and every year, a small delegation of= representatives was sent to the Hague, the political centre in= Holland, to negotiate improving conditions for their piano= tuner/technician members. When I entered the 'market' in the early seventies, I began to= work for a big piano store in Amsterdam, and, immediately was= told to start training hard because it was customary (still)= that the tuners did 7 tunings a day (I have told this here= before, but repeat i to illustrate the working conditions= here). At the same time, tuning a piano then cost about 15,00 US $ ! in= the early seventies! Tuning a piano was considered a low tech kind of work, and if one= said that his (female tuners did not yet exist then) daily work= consisted of tuning pianos, most people would start to laugh or= giggle. They considered it a funny profession, haha. No wonder wages were very low, and conditions in general were so= so for the piano tuners. No wonder too, that at a certain moment, more and more tuners= left their erstwhile employers, and started a business for= themselves. Those, who took that step, did not have an easy time either.= Health insurance and pension plans were, and are, very= expensive, and, above all, the Dutch Government always has= squeezed every single soul to the innermost bones, to get to the= last excess marrow. sob sob... With this background in mind, it is perhaps more easy to= understand that the price development (in general) has taken= only a very slow rise over the last 6 decades. Only 5 years ago, tuning a piano cost something like US $ 55,- to= 60,- The introduction of the Euro has put the cost of living on its= head. All prices jumped with at least 30 to 50 % and in some= cases, the European currency in general, just doubled, just like= that. (don't ask me why and how). This price may seem not so bad compared to you Americans Most piano stores now ask around 75 to 80 US $ (This price may= seem not so bad compared to you Americans, but the comparison= between the US and European currency has lost its reality, due= to the inevitable slow sinking away of the US dollar, thanks to= your President), but it is actually still too low, because the= costs of a car are included and the cost of living has almost= doubled here. The heritage of tuning so many piano's per day, has come to= around 30 piano's a week, through the influence of the Piano= union. That means that every piano tuner who is not self= employed has to tune 6 pianos a day, like it or not. Wages are still so so, but the obligatory health and pension plan= is ok. Those who are self employed, aim for at least 5 pianos a day,= because their costs are high (car, pension, health plan, taxes)= but at least their wages are not skimmed of by a so called boss,= hrmpf. They make more hours, sometimes 10 to 12 hours a day, including= driving, calling customers, and administration, but they have= one huge advantage over the employed ones : they are free, and= if they choose to go to Antarctica tomorrow, they can do that. Maybe this long explanation of the Dutch piano tuner in general,= will make you understand that 1. Dutch tuners were always forced to tune an awful lot of pianos= a day (myself included), 2. always tried to make an extra buck for themselves either in= the evening or in weekends, 3. Were, and are, therefor prone to early wear and tear of their= bodies, 4. Are for those above reasons, more than ready to make a new= start with a nice and relaxing ETD. I am certainly not in the lowest ranks of the tuner world here. I= charge my customers 70 Euros which is 90 US Dollars. However, I am able to tune any more pianos than 2 a day otherwise= my poor left hand will hurt more. So I try to earn my living mostly with technical work, like= regulating and voicing. That is all very nice, but the level of= my clientele is not of the same level you may have in the= chintzy parts of LA. I know LA pretty well, you can definitely= not compare it with Amsterdam, or Holland for that matter. There is a lot of wealth there and incredible amount of= incredibly rich people. There is no Bel Air, Hollywood, or= Beverly Hills here. It is so different David. I hope that anybody, reading this, understands better my= arguments why, I in the first place, and many others here, were= more than ready for a sleek machine. Too much repetitive work,= too many chinese equal temperament puzzles every day till your= 65th birthday. It is killing. I consider myself lucky, to be able my beautiful work, so I am= not complaining. It is just that we have a completely different background. Sometimes it is interesting and also enlightening to better= understand how other live, especially on this list, which counts= a number of techs who are living in other places in the World. And maybe I just THINK I do fantastic tunings; it could be all= in my head; perhaps I'm just a big blowhard who's got everybody= fooled. I hope to find out someday soon?, and I am looking forward to= that moment. I have already been able to check on the skills of my friend= Ricardo in wet and freezing Norway. Let me tell y'all that he too is one of the best I so far have= encountered. Keep that in mind when he pokes around this list, hehehehe... My affection and respect to you, Master Oorebeek. David A. Likewise, and may da foice be witha ya *(; > O <:)* friendly greetings from ANDR=C9 OOREBEEK Where 'music' is no harm can be www.concertpianoservice.nl ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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