Learning was Stretching the Treble

[Michael Gamble]

Agreed, Alan. I too am an "aural" tuner and have been experimenting for 
years trying to find "new" intervals to use in tuning not only the top but 
the bottom also. M10's in the Bass works well as do M15's and M17's in the 
treble but there's nothing to beat M3's in the bearings! The resultant 
"beats" are my "invisible tools". I find the best way to appreciate the 
result is to play both notes and go up and down chromatically. Your ear will 
detect any violent beat-rate changes. One way to come to terms with this is 
to appreciate that the beat rate doubles with every octave (in an upward 
direction)- therefore so do the "invisible tools".
I like your use of wedging the keys/damper-up, Alan. The same result can be 
obtained using the Sos. Ped. (on those pianos which have one)
Though it is generally true to say results are more easy to obtain with a 
really "good" piano, this "invisible tool" works just as well with the old 
clunkers - if you can discount the false strings!
But do try the "chromatic test"!
Regards from a beautiful early morning in the Downland Village....
Michael G.(UK)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Barnard" <tune4u@earthlink.net>
To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:17 AM
Subject: Learning was Stretching the Treble


> Please don't stretch the piano. Unless you intentionally want it a little
> edgy and "brilliant"which is legitimate but not for new tuners and not 
> for
> most customersjust listen to the piano and tune it clean. The piano will
> "stretch" itself properly. Coming out of the temperament, most pianos 
> sound
> good with clean (no beat) double octaves, as David said. These are the
> so-called "4:1 octaves" but it's actually a 4:1 double octave, or 
> fifteenth.
>
> Here's a trick for learning/testing/tuning the 4:1. Let's say you are
> tuning C6. You want the fundamental tone of this note to be absolutely at
> the same pitch (frequency) as the fourth partial of C4 but you can't play
> C4 while tuning C6, so you have to tuneC6 to C5, right? Well, when you 
> have
> the C5-C6 octave very clean, hold down C4 (silently, don't play it, just
> lift the damper) and play and hold C6 firmly. This will excite the
> appropriate partial of C4. If it's absolutely beatless, you are right on
> with your C6 at 4:1.
>
> You can't do this all the way to the top because you can't hear it (at
> least, I can't) but it will get you well into octaves 5 and 6. Then, keep
> the pattern going use the 3rd-10th-17th tests to be sure that you are not
> tuning octaves too narrow and listen carefully for clean single octaves to
> be sure you aren't tuning them too wide.
>
> Here is something kind of fun and instructive, I'll use our C6 example
> above: Press C4 down silently and place a mute between the C4 key and
> either B3 or C#4not the strings; the keys themselvesthis let's you take
> your hand off the key while the damper is still lifted. Now you can tune 
> C6
> without even touching C4 OR C5! Just listen to and eliminate the 4:1 beat
> between C4 and C6. You'll not want to tune this way all your days because
> it takes a little extra time and won't work on anything except pianos that
> are at least somewhat decent and in quiet environments. But, GOOD NEWS,
> these sorts of tricks will help you learn to HEAR the desired octave width
> while just playing the single octave (C5-C6 in this case) with one hand 
> and
> tuning the top note with the othercheck for pure fifths as you go. That
> way, you can quickly tune an octave, then run quick checks with
> double-octaves, 12ths, 10ths (lower tenor), and 17ths (as high as you can
> hear them).
>
> After awhile, you won't have to check everything, every which way, with
> every possible check, every time. You'll learn the SOUND of CORRECT and 
> you
> will have more and more confidence (and speed) in what you are doing.
> However, you should never abandon all checks because pianos differ so
> widely in inharmonicity, etc., and there are always things that can trip
> you up, like false beats that hit at quirky spots and notes that move 
> after
> you tune them (oops, it happens to everyone).
>
> And remember, every time you tune one note to another, the second note 
> will
> only be right IF the first note was right; so when tuning up or down by
> octaves, you can get all messed up. If C4 is a little off in the
> temperament, then you will also have C1, C2, C3, C5, C6, C7, and C8
> wrongeven if you tuned them "perfectly" to each other. This would also
> mess up your P5th checks for all the F's going down and all the G's going
> up. Well, you get the idea: Every now and then, make sure everything is
> working, especially with running 3rds (10ths, 17ths), octaves, and double
> octaves.
>
> Excuse me, but having laid out this stuff to an audience mostly more
> experienced than I, I am going to go hunker in my bunker ...
>
> Alan Barnard
> Salem, Missouri
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: <mps@usol.com>
>> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
>> Date: 07/19/2005 1:21:18 PM
>> Subject: Stretching the Treble
>>
>> I have been "tuning" for several months now. I know that this isn't
>> very long but there is no sense in continually turning out tunings that
>> just don't sound right in the treble.
>> I feel I have a good enough ear on this matter.
>> I tune aurally and would like to know what partial(s) to listen for to
>> make this stretch sound more accurate.
>> I have no trouble in the bass, only the treble.
>>
>> Thank you for your time
>>
>> Mark
>> Montbriand
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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