This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Don't worry about stretching...it comes as a natural part of your tunin= g. Once you can tune well, you can start thinking about adding more st= retch if you want. I recommend a 4ths & 5ths tuning checking with 3rd= s and 6ths...other fast beating intervals progressing... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, California Original message From: Avery To: "Pianotech List" Received: 2/12/2006 1:39:59 PM Subject: Re: Poll : temperaments - choosing ? ( "stretched ? notstretch= ed ?" part answered ) Philippe, Are you just learning to tune? If so, my advice is to FIRST just learn = to tune a good temperament with nicely progressing beat rates on the 3r= ds & 6ths. Don't worry about a stretched temperament (whatever that is)= ! Then worry about stretch as you go out from the temperament! JMHO! It= worked for me for 25+ yrs. :-) Even before I started using an ETD. Avery At 10:37 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote: Thank you Andrew, for your answer. I had read much before asking the question... I understood the theory, = but I wanted to know in what measure it was something very strict or if= sometimes piano were tuned as if being a "theoretical piano", just for= an example to match them with other instrument not needing stretched t= uning... So my question was more about usages or fashions than technica= l... >From your explanation, and from another that came directly on my e-mail= , I understand that there are no exceptions to stretching... ok, In fac= t I knew the problem of tuning very different pianos... but then my que= stion is "how is it usually solved ?", especially when a piano plays wi= th an orchestre. And about temperament, are there also temperaments more commonly used ?= amongst tuners ? and amongst clients ? Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew and Rebeca Anderson To: Pianotech List Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 3:53 PM Subject: Re: temperaments - choosing ? stretched ? not stretched ? Phillippe, I am not sure what you mean by a "stretched temperament." Tuning is st= retched on a piano because of inharmonicity caused by the stiffness of = piano wire. When the wire subdivides vibrations after being struck by = the hammer it does so losing a little length with each subdivision beca= use the wire is stiff. The higher the partial, the more length is lost= and the sharper the coincident tone. When tuning a piano aurally, str= etch occurs naturally as you match those partials. You hear the tone b= lossom or open up, if you will, as you come into coincidence. Where yo= u place it in that narrow zone is a matter of taste--narrow, middle or = wide. Because different pianos are scaled (choice of wire size) differently, = no one recording of reference tones will work throughout the compass. = Sometimes manufacturers will "refine" their scaling in a given model mo= re than once in a year and the same model of piano will actually have a= different scale. The result of different scales is different tuning s= ometimes obvious at the extreme ends of the compass. The pianos will n= ot harmonize to a greater or lessor degree. Actually, a lot of scaling= refinement happens at the break from the long bridge to the bass bridg= e and the break from wound strings to unwound strings. An example of how scaling differences can show up in real life happened= at a university where my wife worked as a pianist. They had a NY Stei= nway D and a Bosendorfer concert grand. For a concert they chose to ha= ve four-hand, two piano accompaniment of the mass choir. I was attendi= ng the concert and during an intermission the choral director approache= d me and asked/complained why their tuner couldn't get the pianos in tu= ne with each other. Knowing the person in question was a fine, pre-emi= nent technician, I knew the problem wasn't the tuning and asked about t= he pianos. I explained how different piano makers would scale their in= struments differently pursuing different philosophies of sound and that= in order for a piano to be "in-tune" the resulting scales must be tune= d differently. The only perfectly harmonious note she could count on w= ould be A4, middle A. (Even then such different pianos would respond t= o climate differently and go out of tune differently.) Steinway with i= ts low tension scale and Bosendorfer with its high tension scale were d= estined to clash. Those piano-makers have very different goals they ac= complish with their instruments. The university has since purchased an= other Steinway D. This is why guitar tuners do not work for tuning pianos. Piano tuners = are more complex and cost multiples of an ordinary tuner. There are a = variety of electronic tuners offered explicitly for tuning pianos. The= cheap ones have stretch templates that may or may not do a good job of= "parodying" the piano you are tuning. The mid-level ones sample three= notes on a piano and then calculate a stretch curve for the entire pia= no. The high-end one measures each note you tune and fits it into the = scale based on the measurements and records those measurements along wi= th partial strength to influence the placement of other notes. Scaling= breaks occur at many places in the piano. Every time you change wire = size, you have a scaling break. That will influence tuning. People wh= o tune relying strictly on their ETD will find that aural checks of an = FAC type ETD will reveal tuning problems on pianos that have prominent = scaling breaks (usual in little pianos). As to temperament preferences, Equal Temperament is the most dissonant = temperament. It is also the most flexible temperament, allowing transp= osition without changing the character of a musical piece. The further= you wander from equal towards just temperament the more consonant comm= on keys and intervals will become. This comes at a price. The dissona= nce will be confined more and more into increasingly dissonant keys/int= ervals. The repertoire becomes more and more constrained by the tuning= . I like well-temperaments. I've enjoyed Barnes Bach on a piano for s= ome time. The piano sounded much better and more powerful as many inte= rvals were close to consonant. The difficulty was in the more modern r= epertoire. Debussy came across more like sand-paper then the creamy/dr= eamy sounds you expect from this composer. Composers that utilized une= qual temperaments wrote pieces that took advantage of those inequalitie= s. When you switch keys in Mozart, Beethovan, Bach etc. you audibly sw= itch gears in a well-temperament. Modern composers wrote for what they= heard on the piano, some advocated for ET. Understand what you are ge= tting when you choose a tuning and then make your choice. Good luck, Andrew Anderson At 06:30 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote: Hi all, I'm currently studying temperaments, and I wonder if a tuner always use= a stretched temperament, especially since this doesn't seems quite compatible with the use of el= ectronic tuning devices. (for the not aural tuners...) This question, especially since I've a CD with reference tones for a st= retched temperament, which seems quite strange since a stretched temperament should depend on the = kind of piano, shouldn't they ? So what ? subsidiary question : as a tuner, do you prefer to use equal temperamen= t ? or do you prefer to use another one ? (which one) ... Or do your clients often have their speci= fic requests ? (in this case what are you commonly asked ?) Philippe Errembault ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/31/82/ba/e9/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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