Ronsen Bacon felt

[Erwinspiano at aol.com]

In a message dated 2/3/2007 9:33:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
Bruce.Stevens at verizon.net writes:

Dale,  


I agree with Rick's excellent statement: In that perspective I often use the  
<<feel>> of the voice. I know thats a loaded concept... but  regardless of 
the hows and whys... there is definitely a very real sensation  of touch to 
tone.  This is something we don't talk about  enough.
I learned from our friend Bob Davis and Steve Schell that I want a hammer  
that passes some sort of a compression test.  As you might recall, Bob  
demonstrated (you also might have been teaching with him) a device that he  could 
insert a hammer and put the "squeeze" on it.  This should have  made a statement 
for anyone who was in the class.
Steve Schell's version of the compression test was a bit simpler to  
preformed.  He would take a bass or tenor hammer and put the "bite" on it  by putting 
the shoulders of the hammer between his front teeth feeling  the compression 
with his jaw when he bit down.  We like to call it the  "bite test".  (Oh, let 
me say that the the tongue isn't involved... no  germs! ha)  One conclusion is 
have is: Thin Nasty Tone = Rock Hard Hammer  (to the core)!   
So many of the hammers manufactured today do not have any real  compression 
when I give them the "bit test".  Some may say that you need  this for power.  
Maybe (I don't agree).  There is some point at  which the hardness of the 
hammer core begins to kill the tone.  Steve and  I have been saying for a long 
time: "Hard hammers kill tone".
I agree with David Love's post and consider  his thoughts to be excellent.  
David takes us to the reality of  what most technicians do and that is to 
service and restore pianos that reside  in homes and not on the concert stage.  


My appreciation to all who are talking about this "delicate" but most  
important subject.


Bruce Stevens


On Feb 3, 2007, at 7:59 AM, _Erwinspiano at aol.com_ 
(mailto:Erwinspiano at aol.com)  wrote:


More interesting discussion


From: RicB <_ricb at pianostemmer.no_ (mailto:ricb at pianostemmer.no) >
Date: February 3, 2007 2:19:39 AM PST
To: _pianotech at ptg.org_ (mailto:pianotech at ptg.org) 
Subject: Ronsen Bacon felt
Reply-To: Pianotech List <_pianotech at ptg.org_ (mailto:pianotech at ptg.org) >




Hi Dale


Yes I do remember your D, and quite well.  I think you and I see piano sound  
in much the same light when it comes down to it and on the level of voicing  
we are discussing here, there is rarely any real sacrifice of one tonal  
aspect over another.... at least not beyond what is reasonable and possible  in the 
real world.  My point  was that even so, and indeed as this discussion 
illustrates, the best  voicers still strive to get more of everything... more beauty 
and more  power... more sustain and more raw attack.  Lets face it... when it 
comes  right down to it we are never in a perfect state of bliss over an  
instrument... or if we do get there for a fleeting moment, it passes all to  
quickly.


I liked your comments refering to the <<cross  over point>> below.   Thats 
the real beauty of fine voicing class concert level  instruments.  That cross 
over  point becomes actually quite large when you sit back and listen to the  
instrument played.  When we  start learning voicing it seems, or it did to me at 
any rate, that that  window of good tone was so very small... but listening 
to some of the pianos  voiced by masters of the art these past 10 years or 
so.... sheeshhh... the  palette of good tone is really quite large indeed.... yet 
at the same time  narrow if you get my meaning.   An instrument must have 
brilliance of some sort, and it must have  beauty of some sort.  But  brilliance 
and beauty can be many things to many people really.  Perhaps its easier ofte 
times to  describe what is not in the arena of good tone. 
In that perspective I often use the  <<feel>> of the voice. I know thats a 
loaded concept... but  regardless of the hows and whys... there is definitely a 
very real sensation  of touch to tone.  Its a very  valuable voicing tool IMB. 
  When one plays pianisimo... it must not only sound pianisimo, it must  feel 
pianisimo.  And when one  plays brilliant... it must feel powerful and 
dynamic with a huge array of  vibrations zinging back into the fingers.  Nothing 
worse, despite what sound  occurs, then a piano that feels soft when one plays 
firmly.


As far as voicing from soft hammers upwards. You  know these past years I've 
been approaching the whole thing from the other  direction. Mostly because I 
get the sensation that laqure imparts a bit of  its own to the tone... and I've 
opted away from that for the time  being.  That said... stiffer  soundboard 
systems that perhaps are not quite as massive at the same  time....(I assume 
you meant both ?? ) ...  Why do you suppose they faded from  practice as you say 
?  Is it a  material based problem or simply by design ?  From the sounds of 
things tho...  there are several over there pursuing that grail :)


Cheers
RicB




Ric
     Ahhh yes, the sticky wicket of defining what "a  beautiful tone"
    really is
    on the Internet.
     However, just to be clearer, hopefully...  Anyway in my universe
    of tone,
    I wasn't suggesting sacrificing any  thing.  You heard my D in
    Ra-ch-ster in
    class.  (They all  sounded dead  in the  hall).
    I know what you are Saying, but the tone I'm describing  is
    probably closer
    to what you & David Andersen & others are referring  to when we
    say"Warm,clear tone."      There seems to be a cross over point in any  
voicing situation
    where the
    sound is under or over the desired target level  of tonal clarity &
    power & at
    the point, we just about reach out  & touch it, but then pull back  &
    re-evaluate, taking into   consideration play in time,(which is
    largely ignored in most
    tone building   protocols) acoustic environment & customer
    preference/yours.      When  coming at it from  the less dense hammer 
side of things, play
    in time has
     enormous affect on building long term tonal benefits & has hugely  
overlooked. The  packing affect in the strike zone   felt occurs     rather rapidly 
in as
    the hammer ,under some hours of tuning & vigorous  playing, provides
    further
    clarity, power & sustain. You of course know  this.        However  
because the historical pendulum of felt  production,
    voicing &
    hammer making techniques have swung so far to  accommodate the
    instant On
    (glassy) sounds of stiffer soundboard systems  ,the fact that rich
    resonant sound was
    produced with waaay softer   hammers in comparison to todays hot,harder
    pressed felts .....has been lost  & forgotten.
    I hope I can contribute to the resurgence in what  musicians know
    as "The
    beautiful sound"
    Kindest regards
    Dale









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