At 06:47 PM 7/17/2008, Paul Revenlo Jones wrote: >From: paulrevenkojones at aol.com > >Subject: Re: [CAUT] Forum format (was Re: Requirements >forcontributing/posting; > RPT status >Message: 2 > >Michael: > >I think that this was well worth repeating. Israel is one of the >best and brightest among us not because of his academic background >but because of his innate learning capacity and the care which >brings to his teaching and piano skills. At CSPT we have fostered >the idea of a student/student relationship between instructors and >students. I am as much a student as my students if I can keep my >mind open and in "beginner's mind". We can only pass on to our >students an almost flat, two-dimensional view of how to "do" stuff. >Only by their application and practice and openness can they achieve >deeper dimensionality. Some do. Some don't. In the meantime, I'm >learning gobs thanks to them! So thanks to Israel, too! > >Paul Paul, Mike - thanks for your kind words. But I do not want to be credited with (or blamed for) Ron's words. So here is an annotated text below... Israel Stein >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Magness <IFixPianos at yahoo.com> >To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>; caut at ptg.org >Sent: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 5:16 pm >Subject: [CAUT] Forum format (was Re: Requirements >forcontributing/posting; RPT status > > >When I was reading the give and take between Ed Sutton and Ron >Nossaman on the subject of putting the archives into a more >comprehensible(Wikipedia/Pianopedia) type format something began >itching around in my brain that I remembered reading on the CAUT >list last fall during the discussions of a CAUT designation. > >IMHO Israel Stein's letter on how people learn or don't learn and >why was rather illuminating and apropos to this discussion. > >I found and copied it here for those who care to avail themselves > > > >At 11:00 AM 11/11/2007, Ron Nossaman wrote: > >"Yes, they're the very people who say this is how it's done because >this is how I was taught, and will resist further education to their >dieing breath". > >IS >Hmmm... Sounds very much like the guy who figured out the best way >to "improve" a Steinway sostenuto system and refuses to hear any >reasonable objection from those who have to work with those things >every day. Yeah those people who learned in school to weigh various >options and fit the solution to the problem just don't come anywhere >near that level of genius. >People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... RN >They were too often taught incompetence, and have practiced it with >dedication and diligence ever since. Plenty of these people have >educational certification of some sort or another, which is >apparently no dependable indicator of capability in practice. >Realistically, I don't think people can be taught anything. They can >be exposed to information, and either learn or not, as they are >either capable or willing. The information can come from a >structured "educational" environment, or through the curiosity and >personal research efforts of the student. Capability is the easy >part (we can all learn), it's the willingness that's tough. Those >unable or unwilling to learn can still be trained, or programmed, to >do fairly complex tasks without understanding what they're actually >doing. I expect we all fit this category in some instances. The fact >is that anyone incapable of learning without being taught is doomed >to run their programming forever because they'll never overcome >their ! education - or rather someone else's education that was >installed in them. Also, credential and qualification are not >synonymous and never were. IS >And anyone incapable of receiving instruction and seeing the value >in others' knowledge is doomed to run their own programming that >they have installed in themselves through their often erroneous >conclusions. As for example the rather ignorant description of the >educational process we find above. In my close to thirty years >experience in first formally learning and then occasionally teaching >piano technology I have not seen anyone trying to "install" learning >in someone else. You expose people to knowledge. You guide them when >they go astray. You show them possibilities. If anyone has ever been >to any of the classes that I organize you will see that students are >given the opportunity to discover what there is to be learned and >provided answers to their questions as they arise - from a variety >of instructors, each with a different perspective. They learn with >their eyes and hands - not with their ears. And with the available >guidance, they manage to figure out things that eluded them for >years - you can see the light go on... Your description of the >educational process above, Ron, is typical of the myopia of many of >the self-taught who never see anything but the inside of their own >brain. Fortunately for us all, many of the self-taught understand >the value of knowledge they can receive from other and seek it at >every opportunity - rejecting what does not work for them and >assimilating the rest best they can. And yes, sometimes they too get >it wrong. Don't get me started about the value of follow-up... RN >Information doesn't just spring out of nowhere. Someone somewhere >must have an original thought or observation to start a learning >process that there is no one to teach at the first generation. So >the notion that someone can't learn without being taught is indeed >nonsense. It has to start somewhere. IS >And I wonder how many people spend months and years reinventing the >wheel to learn the basics of the piano craft and screwing up >countless clients' pianos in the process (thereby contributing to >the low esteem and the low pay that this thread started out about) >when they could learn the same in maybe a year's time - given some >competent instruction - or a couple years' apprenticeship, and then >go on to develop a much higher level of skill and expertise from a >firm foundation. Perhaps on to some innovations of their own. I >wonder how far David Stanwood would have gotten with his system if >he would have spent all that time and energy trying to teach himself >the basics of how to tune and regulate pianos - instead of learning >it all from Bill Garlick in about 7 months (that's about how long it >should take for a person of normal intelligence willing to put in >some time - it ain't rocket science). > It still seem to me that the widest variety of methods and > approaches I was exposed to - without being told which is the best > - was in my time at the North Bennet Street School. From a variety > of teachers - with diametrically opposed approaches. Some of them I > still use. Some I have rejected as inappropriate for the > circumstances in which I find myself working. Some don't fit the > way my mind, eyes or hands work. That is the value of a good formal > education - exposure to a variety of knowledge, in an atmosphere of > feedback, discussion and analysis - leading to understanding rather > than just "rote training". >Most (not all) of the stuff I hear and read from some of these "self >taught" guys (and Mr. N is one of the worst in that regard) suffers >precisely from this lack of varied perspective. They see things from >one pair of eyes - their own. Never engaging in the give-and-take >that a true student/teacher relationship is based on, from which >both learn. Perhaps that's why some of these folks have such a >jaundiced view of the educational establishment - they seem to >universalize their own miserable experience which may have been >caused in part by their own unwillingness to perhaps listen to >someone else's voice but their own... >Israel Stein > >Mike >-- >Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can >catch excellence. >Vince Lombardi > >Michael Magness >Magness Piano Service >608-786-4404 ><http://www.ifixpianos.com/>www.IFixPianos.com >email <mailto:mike at ifixpianos.com>mike at ifixpianos.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/20080717/5244dff6/attachment.html
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