I generally figure with a pitch raise say, up to 1/4 tone that it doesn't take me any longer to raise it that far and tune it than if it were 1/8 tone flat. But, I also have a time frame I watch. I too figure 2 passes with a "normal" pitch raise. I figure this way. However long it "usually" takes me to just "tune" the piano with a minor pitch raise, something like I said above, let's just say, 1 hour. If I am within that hour time frame, the price remains the same. If I finish early and often times I do, I do something else to the piano, maybe adjust regulation, the pedals or whatever to finish up the hour. On the other hand, if it goes over that hour time frame, then I simply start charging by my hourly rate from that point forward. So, that's how I figure pitch charges. If you're going to charge for a pitch raise, simply explain that it is flat. Personally, I don't care if they believe me or not. 99% of them do. It's my job to be able to explain why it drops in pitch, weather changes, strings stretching etc. I explain too that pianos should be tuned at least yearly or more according to all major manufacturer's and that this one has missed x amount of years and this is what happens when you do that. If you "forked" a relatively close note which doesn't happen very often, usually the whole piano is way flat, use that same note to show the customer how flat the rest of the piano is. If they can't hear it well, then, they will have to take your word for it. :-) From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Bartlett Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 8:51 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] justify pitch raise I wonder how talk about humidity systems deals with my original question of a pitch raise. This has been asked many times- please change subject heading when changing topics. Thanks to who offered practical, usable information regarding aural pitch raises. I would wonder at which point in those aural demonstrations does one adequately demonstrate pitch raising? I'm not looking for dissertations, nor for argument, just some understanding. Since I normally do two passes, pitch raise often doesn't come up. I often don't bring up the subject (yeah, I know it costs me money), as I tune through two times because I find accuracy much better. It makes less money, but has gotten me into the major halls of the city and looks marvelous on a web site. I just overpull, and if bad, I cheat the top with a "guestimate" of how far I need to go to get moderately close. I have a system for horrible pitchraises, including charging for them. The reason I asked in the first place is because of the new customer being of the suspicious kind, and if I had to justify it with a fork, wasn't sure I could. I'm still not sure. The piano varied from -0.6 to -32.5. What if I "forked" a relatively close note? Then, when the last tuner was a reputable tuner with decades of tunings, it gets really sticky. I always ask in initial call about last tunings, and often brand of piano. Then I measure the tuning and play the C's downward. If they're horrible I call the client in and measure those same notes in overpull and describe for them what is going on. On the piano yesterday, knowing the former tuner, I just tuned, and didn't discover the really bad stuff till I got above 440. What I find so useful about TL is saving overpull measurements, and thus having ability to show the relative position to being "in tune" on each note, when I feel any documentation is needed beyond what already has happened. On really really horrible pianos, I have my own pattern I follow for pulling it up, and can normally bring a 50 cent PR into some very close place to 440 the first day, then nail it solidly on the second call. So my original question really was for those possibly "iffy" places where a fork doesn't always tell the story with "force". On pianos I think are disasters, I also use a fork- but those are the nearly half-step ones which are so obvious the client will wince as much as I. Thank you to those folks who provided simply understood information to the basic question without a lot of rabbit chasing. I've had trouble with people running way afoul of my questions before, meaning I didn't ask the question completely enough. Last time I asked a question about anyone ever refusing a very old piano, I had a dozen-to-twenty responses which made all kinds of assumptions about the value of old pianos, how many they worked on, etc. instead of a yes-or-no answer. I had never said I don't work on older pianos in the question. I only asked "if ever"- as I have now decided I will not work on brass rails. Without adequate training in such, and the frailties involved I just won't do it for fear of more harm than good. I have people who will do that, just as I have agreed to be the one who will look at players, the one who did that having retired. So after chasing my own rabbit............. thanks for those who gave me very helpful information, which I had not considered, being a Tunelab person". And, BTW, the "save the overpull measurements" can be a wonderful teacher for clients. les b William Monroe wrote: Hi Mark, Like Terry, I'd offer up the following points: Terry's suggestion about demonstrating pitch is exactly what I do: tune one string of a unison. It can be played one after the other, or together, and then tuned to 2 cents off to show appropriate "out of tuneness." Well done Terry! The number of times I've heard, "It has to be installed correctly" makes me want to vomit. As Terry pointed out, "Duh." Of course it has to be installed correctly and maintained correctly. So just because some dolt in the past has not done this, doesn't mean you will or I will. You're using a false premise to not install these systems, Mark, because you WILL do it correctly and you WILL educate your clients (all three minutes of it) about proper care. And yes, of course whole home humidity control is best - and I've yet to see the whole home system that maintains the level of humidity control that a Piano Life Saver system does - and I've seen some very extensive systems. One elaborate unit was designed for a clients piano room with her "B" and still we play "chase the pitch." At any rate, please don't take my excitement and strong words as a personal attack. It's not. It's just a position I feel strongly about and feel that we can offer our clients such a level of protection with these systems. William R. Monroe On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 5:26 AM, perrys piano restorations <perrymark at hotmail.com> wrote: Hello, My name is Mark Perry, and I am an aural tuner and rebuilder. to answer your question about justifying a pitch raise, it is interesting as I read the many responses. first, if it is bad enough to need a pitch raise, I warn the customer there will be an additional charge. I always ask over the phone when the last tuning was, and let them know before I drive out that it may need one. As for some measuring technique, I think the one thing being an aural tuner gives me is the advantage of knowing how bad it sounds to my fork. I can show this audibly to the customer if they ask, or I can tune a key to pitch and play an octave. One of my employees has the tune-lab system, and he explains to me how the piano is measured, and how the machine pitch raises. We have tuned side-by-side in many college rooms, and often watched each other. This is the first machine which matches my ear almost to perfection. It is so accurate that we are often less than one cent different when we reach the last octave. The tune-lab is easy to read and see where the pitch is if you know what you are looking at. Many people just want to be told why they need one, and will trust you based on your good work. As for the piano life-saving system, while they work well when properly installed, I have seen them poorly installed buzzing on the soundboard, dumping massive amount of humidity into the piano soaking the felt, I have also seen them work to crack a soundboard. they MUST be installed correctly, and with the understanding that proper maintenance is a MUST. I almost never recommend the piano life-saver system in a home. It is always better to regulate the humidity in the room. The moisture king system works to do this quite well. I even have some customers who have gone to the expense of installing a humidity system into their heat pump. this is far better for every aspect of the home as well as the piano. Either way, if you install the life-saver system, be sure to do a good job for the sake of the piano. God Bless, Mark _____ _____ avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com> : Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090403-0, 04/03/2009 Tested on: 4/3/2009 3:05:56 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech_ptg.org/attachments/20090403/723a502a/attachment.html>
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