Hey, Jeff----I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If all the fourths within a temperament octave---say F3 to F4---are expanded, and beating between 1 and 2 bps, and all the fifths within the same octave are slightly contracted, with no discernible beat, you will have a highly idealized equal temperament that satisfies all the traditional M3, M6, and contiguous thirds checks and is custom for that piano's inharmonicity. The psycho-acoustic illusion created by the dead-still-tuned three- string unison masks the "fast-beating" fourth and, to some degree, the beating of the thirds and sixths. Hope this helps. Come and see and hear it happen in Grand Rapids. Experience always replaces belief. David Andersen On Apr 15, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Jeff Deutschle wrote: > Mr. Stopper: > > Thank you for the reply. > > I did as you suggested a while ago. I heard the 3:1 partial match so > strongly that it was the only “sweet spot” I could find, and really > only ended up with a beatless twelfth tuning. And to construct the > temperament I had to estimate the fifths and octaves until there where > enough other intervals to establish an equal temperament. Trying to > find a “sweet spot” for a fourth or fifth within or without a twelfth > always resulted in the interval being too pure for equal temperament, > even when playing three notes at once. > > I will continue to wait for you to publish your method. I suspect that > the piece I am missing is making the beat of certain fourths and > fifths and 2:1 octaves be nearly integrals (such as 3 beats of one > interval for every 2 beats of another interval) while the 12ths become > slightly wide, but nearly pure. How close to perfect integrals and how > nearly pure would of course depend on the piano’s iH. > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Bernhard Stopper <b98tu at t- > online.de> wrote: >> Use a duodecime spanner tool and tune this duodecime (or twelfth) >> interval >> aurally pure with the vintage "whole tone" technique used for >> aurally pure >> octaves so far. >> And forget about tuning one specific partial pair of the octaves >> pure. They >> are different on every piano and on each position and absolutely >> meaningless >> in this tuning concept. >> >> >> Bernhard Stopper >> >> >> Am 15.04.2009 um 18:25 schrieb Jeff Deutschle: >> >>> Ed: >>> >>> Thank you for the reply. >>> >>> I know the 3:1 test that you mention and also a 6:2 test for >>> beatless >>> 12ths, but Mr. Stopper has repeated many times that his 12ths are >>> not >>> beatless but at a “sweet spot”. I am hoping to learn what the aural >>> tests for this “sweet spot” are. >>> >>> I’ve been playing with octaves that have equal beating 4:2 and 6:3 >>> partials which result in an inherent 2:1 beat; meaning that the iH >>> of >>> the piano inherently requires a certain beat rate of the wide 2:1 >>> partials when the wide 4:2 partials beat at the same speed as the >>> narrow 6:3 partials. My biggest problem is that I tune few pianos >>> that >>> have a clear enough tone to ghost the partials (the RBI tests aren’t >>> accurate enough for this) and have a pinblock capable of a very fine >>> tuning. If I like the sound, I hope to be able to hear it directly >>> and >>> tune it without ghosting or first finding this inherent beat rate >>> first by ghosting. Of course this inherent beat rate will not be the >>> same for all octaves. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Ed Sutton >>> <ed440 at mindspring.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Who can question words like "Pure" and "Natural?" >>>> ["I tune impure octaves by listening to unnatural beats."] >>>> >>>> I'd like a simple, carefully crafted demonstration where several >>>> people >>>> tune >>>> their favorite octaves on a variety of pianos (A2-A3-A4-A5), and we >>>> record >>>> and measure the tunings. >>>> >>>> Then we might find out something specific that we can name and >>>> reproduce. >>>> >>>> Ed S. >>>> >>>> Jeff- >>>> To check a pure 12th, use the use the M6-M17 test, thus, for >>>> example: >>>> F3-D4=F3-A5. The beat of the sixth is very clear, and the seventeen >>>> should >>>> beat the same. >>>> ES >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Deutschle" >>>> <oaronshoulder at gmail.com> >>>> To: <pianotech at ptg.org> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 7:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Aurally pure octaves >>>> >>>> >>>> Kent: >>>> >>>> What are the "associated aural checks" for PureTuner? I continue to >>>> wait for Mr. Stopper's explanation. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Kent Swafford <kswafford at gmail.com >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey, this could be good. How about if you come in and do a tuning >>>>> concert? >>>>> (Don't know what piano we'll have.) And then as time allows I >>>>> can break >>>>> out >>>>> 'PureTuner and its associated aural checks. >>>>> >>>>> I know I will learn much; I can't wait. >>>>> >>>>> Kent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:42 PM, David Andersen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Kent Swafford wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I came away more convinced than ever that whole sound tunings >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> OnlyPure Tuner tunings are chasing after the same muse. I must >>>>>>> say at >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> point that I think whole sound tuners can learn much and bring >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> reliable >>>>>>> results by incorporating 'PureTuner techniques. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Care to compare notes at Pianotech Live in Grand Rapids? 8^) >>>>>> >>>>>> Absolutamente, mi amigo. My mind is open and humbly excited to >>>>>> learn.... >>>>>> >>>>>> DA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> Jeff Deutschle >>>> >>>> Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. >>>> Thank >>>> You. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Jeff Deutschle >>> >>> Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. >>> Thank You. >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Regards, > Jeff Deutschle > > Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. > Thank You. >
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