Thanks a lot! I will taking these notes with me when I return to reevaluate the situation. I'll report back! Matthew --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Gerald Groot <tunerboy3 at comcast.net> wrote: From: Gerald Groot <tunerboy3 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Damper Issue??? To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 5:15 PM Correction. I said: ” If it is, excess glue can and will edge its way down the damper felt or stick out enough to ever so slightly touch the damper next to it. " I meant to say: that the excess glue may stick out just far enough to ever so slightly touch the STRING next to it. Not the damper next to it. Sigh…. Always find mistakes after it is sent… Probably more too that I missed… :-) From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Groot Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:05 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Damper Issue??? Matthew, What John F and Tom D says, is also what I would do. In many cases such as this one, the process of elimination is sometimes the only way to find it. One of the easiest ways to completely eliminate the damper head or damper wire as being the problem would be to just remove it from the piano - damper wire included and then, see if that same note buzzes or whatever it is doing. If it no longer does with the damper removed, now you know that it is a damper issue of some kind and that it is THAT particular damper. If it is a damper issue, you will need to determine where the problem is coming from on the damper. The felt? The bend in the wire? The wire itself? The damper head? The damper lever lead weights? Dampers not properly aligned? A shifted damper guide rail? A neighboring damper felt or wire? Excess glue? Hardened damper felts? Keep this in mind too. Often times, if it is the damper wire, it could possibly be the wire to the note NEXT to your string that is touching your wire, rather than the damper that actually rests on the offending note. Yes, squeeze the damper head with a flat parallel pliers shoving the damper wire into the head more. But ONLY if this is the problem. Don't guess. Guessing sometimes causes more problems for us and therefore, more wasted time and expense for both parties. Be careful when doing this. It is easy to put a kink in the wire placing the damper on a different angle that where it was originally. If this happens then the damper felt may no longer rest properly on the wires and might allow it to no longer shut off the strings correctly. It is very easy for your tool to slip off from the wire from being in a hurry or from being careless, crushing or bending the felt or something else. Ask me how I know this? Sometimes moving the strings in the v-bar area over one direction or the other will be enough to find a different place for the wire on the v-bar. This may eliminate the v-var as the suspect or you may discover that the v-bar was the problem all along. Burr's or indents or rust in that area or corroded strings can causing a buzzing sound in the v-bar area. Moving the string around into a different position often eliminates that. Sometimes rattles are mistaken or described as buzzes or twany sounds. Check the damper lever and parts to make sure the lead and damper lever screws are not loose and rattling around inside. Check the screw that tightens the damper wire down too. Only tighten it down good after you have re-aligned the damper for proper seating to the string and after you have it lifting properly with the sustaining pedal and key in comparison to the other dampers around it. Once that is done, you may now hold the damper head in place firmly with your fingers holding the wooden damper head itself and tighten the screw until it is snug. I never REEF on that little screw. More times than not, after tightening that screw, it will cause the damper to twist slightly so you may have to play with it a little bit until you get the damper to stay put. After reading your 2nd post and description, I am tending to lean more towards the possibility of what was described earlier by another tech or two, having harder damper felt like on the face or bottom of the damper felt or something possibly spilled on the strings or dampers. Look over the whole damper carefully to make sure things like excess glue is not the culprit. If it is, excess glue can and will edge its way down the damper felt or stick out enough to ever so slightly touch the damper next to it. Or, it may have seeped down onto the damper felt causing it to harden somewhat. If something was spilled, look inside of the action as well to make sure it didn't get onto anything where it does not belong like on the hammer. If the piano happens to have rusty or corroded wires, the damper felt can absorb this making them hard, leaving little rusty string wire grooves on the felt that rests on the strings. Letting the key up will cause a zinging sound as the damper engages the felt. On some pianos, the damper guide rail screws either become loose or were not tight enough to start out with. This being the case, the whole damper guide rail can shift. Most often I have found that it will shift to the right allowing more than one damper wire to engage the neighboring wires on either side of the strings. Like I said, soooooooo many possibilities. Jer From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Tom Driscoll Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 11:32 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Damper Issue??? Matthew , Tom Driscoll here, Comments interspersed below Ger, How could I troubleshoot the vbar, or the wire being loose in the damper head such as you mentioned? v-bar--- lower tension a bit on the string and slide it side to side on the bar. The wire will smooth out the cast iron somewhat if it has a burr or a deep groove. Sometimes just dropping tension on both tuning pins then tighten one so a different part of the wire will bear on the vbar. I'm talking maybe 1/32 " or so.I did this recently on a new chinese grand that was jingling like crazy with success. It is the right string of the note that is being affected. That is the side of the damper wire of that note. And, after using my damper wire bending tool to bend/manipulate the wire, it was unsuccessful. I am thinking it could be the bend of the wire toward the top as it enters the head. Is there a way to troubleshoot that issue as well? Lift the damper up and tap -wiggle -manipulate -compare to its' neighbor, squeeze the wire into the head with your parallel pliers. Pull the sucker out of the piano and see if the problem goes away. Matthew ,success in trouble shooting problems isn't something you develop. In my opinion it is a decision. There is nothing wrong with getting advice as we all give and receive our share but the piano and the problem are in front of you. Listen,touch, pull , tap ,swap ,spit,kick and cry if need be. If you decide to find a problem, even if it is unrepairable you are practically there. First call today was on an old Steinway upright (1874) with a customer complaint of a dead bass. I showed them where the wrap changed from copper to iron hence the thuds. Twisting and manipulating the worst offender made no change . I can't fix it without string replacement which is out of the budget for them but they now understand the problem and we moved on to focus on the stuff that they can afford to have me repair. Decide that you will find the problem and you most likely will . As I have quoted to you before from the great Yogi Berra-- "You can observe a lot by looking " Good luck. Thank you for your help! Matthew avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 091206-0, 12/06/2009 Tested on: 12/6/2009 12:04:36 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 091206-0, 12/06/2009 Tested on: 12/6/2009 12:15:21 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20091206/cf2e7a13/attachment.htm>
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