Unfortunately, recappinig is not in my vocabulary, but the strings have been affected, I presume being eaten slightly by wine acid or phosphoric acid. I guess I should first try to change a string. I just thought while I'm restringing that section, I would try to clean it up. Joe On Jun 24, 2010, at 9:53 PM, pianotech-request at ptg.org wrote: > Send pianotech mailing list submissions to > pianotech at ptg.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pianotech-request at ptg.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pianotech-owner at ptg.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pianotech digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: WNG Parts Question (William Truitt) > 2. Re: Spilled wine (Terry Farrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 21:47:03 -0400 > From: "William Truitt" <surfdog at metrocast.net> > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question > Message-ID: <000901cb1408$506102e0$f12308a0$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > HI Nick: > > > > I actually applied it to both way too strong springs as well as treble > springs that weren't all that far off as far as strength goes > > > > No, it didn't slow the hammer rise. The springs that were way too > strong > were still way too strong, (unless you have manipulated the spring, > you > haven't changed its strength) but the movement of the hammer head > rising > was more like what we are used to. And then pushing the spring down > to > weaken it accomplished the task in much more the same manner as we are > accustomed. Once where I wanted it, the firm steady rise we want to > see. > AND THE FEEL IN THE KEY IS DIFFERENT. You'll have to do this and > compare > it, but you can definitely feel it. > > > > The fix for the hard bushing would still probably be to do what I am > doing - > drill out the hole and rebush with cloth and repin so that the wire > is snug > in the cloth. If the springs are the same, then something similar > in pin > size, hole size, and bushing cloth would be about the same. > > > > I have used my gram spring guage to check torque on the rep levers. > I don't > have the WNG one. 6 to 8 ish. Repinning these cloth bushed top > posts one > size up brought it up to 10 to 12 grams, and this seemed to improve > things. > When I yank the whips off the rails tomorrow I may do this extra > step at the > same time as the rep levers, since I will have all of them off the > rails. > Since you have the hard bushings, you will want to play with it and > establish what you want and how to get there before you start. In a > perfect > world, all of this work would be done before you hang them on the > rails in > the first place. > > > > I do have some concern about the cloth walking out. I may put a bit > of WNG > white glue on the cloth as I draw it through. It's probably not > that great > a concern. Or may be hit it with thin CA glue at the ends, since it > is not > a center pin bushing functioning in the usual sense. > > > > I do hope WNG investigates this. No matter how good or thorough > your action > work is, you are never going to get that last little bit that turns > your > action into dreamboat status unless the rep springs are very secure. > > > > I have observed this on other makes of whips to a greater or lesser > degree. > It is important enough, no matter what the make of whippen, that we > check > for this on any new set out of the box and correct it if needed. I > think > any high end action rebuilder will always want to fix this once they > understand the effect on the feel and performance of the action. > > > > If I seem insistent, it's because I know from my own direct > experience just > how important this is. > > > > Will > > > > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] > On Behalf > Of Nicholas Gravagne > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:35 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question > > > > Hey Will, > > Nice work! > > Now, just to be clear: let's say you applied your "fix" to a whip > wherein > the hammer rise out of check was much too strong and difficult to > regulate. > So, applying the '"fix" only, with no other regulation at all, not > only > slowed down the cranky hammer rise, but at the same time made further > adjustment (and hopefully little of that) of the spring more sure > and more > "normal". Is that right? > > Because if it is, then the fix also maintains a snappy jack, as well > as a > properly spring-loaded system from check. Good news! (Uh, except for > all the > extra work we now have to do on new parts!) > > I just inspected a hard-bushed WNG whip from my system. Yes, the > spring > moves a good deal in its plastic core / center (these whippens do > not appear > to have center pins as such). > > Tomorrow I will try the "Truitt WNG Whip Fix" (T W W F) and report > back. > Let's give it a whirl. > > Question 1: are your jacks now snappy and sure? > > Question 2: have you checked the rep lever (spring disengaged) for > torque > using the gram spring gage? As they are now, WNG rep levers resist 8 > or 9 > grams when the spring gage finger is applied at the end of the drop > screw > leather. Typical readings on standard wood reps is about 2 grams. (I > know, > for you purists out there, this is not a true torque reading, but it > is easy > to do, and easy to communicate). Whatever your reading is, it won't > be a > "right-or-wrong" thing, but more of a "it-is-what-it-is" thing. > > Question 3: any concerns that the pin and cloth will, with time, > "walk out" > of the post hole? I guess not since old S&S whippens were set up per > your > fix --- neither lateral nor back-and-forth motion can be detected. > Old S&S > (teflon) rep springs do not move much, but do a bit more than the > cloth set > up. Extra whips I have around the shop, Tokiwa and Renner, have rep > springs > that move at the coils noticeably, but not nearly as much as the WNGs. > > Finally, good work informing Jerry at WNG of your investigations. > > Cheers > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:14 PM, William Truitt > <surfdog at metrocast.net> > wrote: > > To Nick and others who have been following the thread regarding WNG > rep > spring adjustment: > > > > I made a meaningful discovery related to the rep springs on the WNG > parts > today. It's the same problem that I had on some Abel Encore whips a > couple > of years ago, which I corrected on that action with a very obvious > improvement. > > > > Nick and others have observed that the rep springs are very > difficult to > adjust with consistency - see Nick's remarks below. I was having > this same > issue on this Steinway a couple of years ago. I had regulated about > 75 % of > the rep springs. They were behaving very inconsistently with > regards to > strengthening or weakening them. And the action had this vague, it > just > doesn't feel right, I don't know what it is thing going on. > Finally, I > pulled a whippen off the rail and started looking at it and playing > with it. > I noticed that the spring moved back and forth a fair amount - the > bushing > through the coil was smaller than the interior of the coil by > almost .050 > inch. > > > > So I repined with a larger center pin, hung the whip on the rail, > and played > the key. A tad better. > > > > I drilled out the hole, and inserted center pin bushing cloth that > filled > the center of the coil completely. Much better, but the cloth > without the > support of the pin would flex. > > > > I inserted as large a center pin as would fit into the bushing. > > > > Voila - I was back in Fat City. The vagueness was gone, there was > no herky > jerky rise to the hammer. The hammer rose in a smooth and steady > fashion, > and the action felt positive, direct, and predictable. The > improvement was > not subtle > > > > So I removed all whips from the rail and proceeded to rebush and > repin them > in this fashion. And now this piano action felt like the real > thing. Time > well spent. > > > > > > I checked the WNG whips for this today. Sure enough, there was side > to side > play, as well as fore and aft movement. The smallest of the 3 size > springs > had the most play, but all had obvious movement. I started by > repining what > was there, moving from the .048 original center pin, to .054, and > finally to > .061. Much improved but still some play. > > > > So I drilled out the bushing with a .120 drill bit, ran the center pin > bushing cloth through, followed by .061 center pin. Now the coil > was as > snug as a bug in a rug. Now my test notes adjusted for strength in > the > usual manner with that firm, positive feel we want. > > > > Why would this be important? Think about it - that rep spring is > lifting a > lever arm and acting as one itself. If it is moving, it is changing > the > mechanical advantage in an unpredictable and inconsistent manner. > How hard > or soft, how fast or slow, it's always going to be changing on you, > but not > predictably > > > > I feel strongly that this is very likely the source of your problems. > Experiment yourself, easy enough to do. You will be surprised. And > if a > barbarian like me can feel it, think what it would mean to a real > player! > > > > I spoke with Jerry Reyerson at WNG about this, and they will > investigate it. > Hard or soft bushings, the problem will still be the same. > > > > Will Truitt > > > > > > > > > > > > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] > On Behalf > Of Nicholas Gravagne > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:30 PM > > To: pianotech at ptg.org > > > Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question > > > > Hi Will, > > Thanks for you input > > On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 4:13 PM, William Truitt > <surfdog at metrocast.net> > wrote: > > Hi Nick: > > I'm mostly through my first regulation on the WNG shanks, whippens, > capstans, front and balance rail pins, and back checks; along with > Weikert > felt Ronsen hammers. The shanks and whips are the cloth bushed > ones, which > were sitting on my shelf for a while. > > My observations thus far: > > Yes, the rep springs are insanely, outrageously strong - even with > this set > of Weikert felt hammers, which are on the heavy side. > > > Same here, including the Weikert felt hammers, which weigh in only a > tad > lighter than the originals. > > I'm regulating them now but have done about half of them. I'm still > deciding what I'll do to get them down consistently. What did you > end up > doing Nick, besides pulling them up to strengthen them or pushing > them down > to weaken them? > > > Virtually impossible to get the kind of consistency we like to see. > I don't > see any special technique that will mitigate this problem. But RE > standard > techniques, I had to push down on the spring with the Hart tool a > good deal > farther than usual. Tweaking for a tiny bit more of slackness was > had by > placing the Hart tool under the top spring and "massaging" upward, > taking > care not to kink. > > Frustration creeps in when the adjustment is now too loose requiring > the > reverse adjustment for more tension. So now you slip the top spring > out of > the groove, give it a tiny yank, and once again you are too strong. > From the > standpoint of the technician, I would take the screw-adjustment any > day than > to have to regulate springs this way. > > On a typical wood system, the range or zone of workability is > noticeably > larger. The WNG zone of workability is quite narrow. You say you > have cloth > bushed parts? Why not try to repin the rep lever to something like > twice its > current torque (as measured with the spring disengaged). I think we > would > all like to know what you come up with. > > I did have some problems with some of the drop screws being loose in > the > shank flange hole, and the jack window height adjustment screw the > same. > Also, some of the center pins were not centered well in their > bushing cloth. > > > > Had no issues with any of these. My parts are the current run of hard > bushings. > > Also the ends of the shanks varied in diameter at the tips, which > required > me to take sandpaper and round them down a bit. Some hammer heads > were > quite tight on the shanks. This created problems gluing on the heads. > > > Why not ream the head holes rather than dress down the shank ends? > This > worked well for me. > > > > The shanks are not very stiff torsionally, yet are stiff > longitudinally. > > > Yes, but the same is true for wooden shanks (I think). I can't > imagine that > relative lack of torsional stiffness should be a problem. > > I ended up doing about the "average" amount of traveling on the > shanks. > > Less traveling required here. > > "Burning"of shanks is pretty simple and easy as pie once you start > to get > used to it. > > Yes. > > I did end up with about half a dozen loose heads, which I CA'ed back > on. I > did remove one to relocate it, no problema. No clicking issues. > > > No loose heads (that I am aware of), but clicking probably due to > hammer > centers. > > Friction was very consistent in the 2 to 4 gram range, just as you > observed. > Whips consistent. > > Yes. > > I removed them from the rail and cut off the excess shank on the > band saw, > then cleaned them up on the belt sander. > > > Me too; but we need a better way to do this so as not to remove the > shanks > from the rail. With wood I have been able to saw off the stubs and > disk sand > flat (via pad and electric drill) with all attached to the rail. Had > trouble > sawing through the tubes with any ease. > > Blew them out with an air gun. I don't like the tubed shanks - I > think it > gives the hammers a hollow sound. > > Very interesting! > > > Did you put in WNG backchecks too, Nick? I would be interested in > your > reaction to them if you did. > > No. Installed the big and long fat guys from Pianotek (or was it > Pacific). I > like these and checking is working out like a dream. Considering the > WNG > lightweight parts and low-inertia design (including the capstans) I > did not > foresee any weight issues, and in fact had to remove a good deal of > lead > from the original keys. A friend tech of mine, with mucho mucho > prepping > experience reports many frustrations regulating the WNG backchecks > in a new > M&H AA. Anyone else? > > Did you use the back check kit that WNG sells? I did, but I had to > modify > 3 of the 5 jigs just to be able to use them on this Steinway A. > > Useful to know. > > Thanks Will > > > > > > > > > > > > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] > On Behalf > Of Nicholas Gravagne > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:30 AM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question > > > > For those of you familiar with the new Wessell, Nickel and Gross (WNG) > composite action parts: > > Having recently installed WNG whippens along with shanks and flanges > (w/ the > new hard bushings) I have a couple of questions. > > 1) What is your general, overall sense of these parts in terms of > regulation > and performance? For one thing, we are finding the rep springs way too > strong, requiring more than usual "uncoiling" to obtain correct spring > strength. The shank flange friction is within WNG specs of 2 to 4 > grams as > measured per the WNG site. > > 2) Have you encountered clicking sounds, reminiscent of the old S&S > Teflon > bushings? We have on about 8 treble notes. The clicking also might > have been > loose hammer heads, but these were checked and also reinforced > (front and > back joints) with CA glue, followed by making sure of flange and > action > screw tightness. > > Still clicking. Since the flange bushings are hard (as opposed to the > earlier WNG parts which came with cloth bushings) we cannot easily > check / > repin these centers. Any WNG-specific insight on the source of > clicking? > > Some quick thoughts: > > The action is an old Boston M&H BB that was heavily leaded. The > lighter > weight and lower inertia WNG parts, including the low-mass capstans, > allowed > for a significant amount of lead removal and / or reduction. > > The shanks "burn" easily and surely with a heat gun. > > The WNG "action glue" recommended for hammers, etc., works fine as > long as > you don't readjust previously glued hammers (as is often done with hot > glue). If you see one leaning that was glued a few minutes earlier, > better > to let it dry and then burn it over later. > > Very few flanges required travel paper. > > Overall flange friction, whips and shanks, is fairly consistent. > > Trimming and / or sanding off the hammer shank (tube) stubs after > the hammer > glue has dried creates a black powder, some of which migrates into the > hollow tube only to escape later on to your nice, clean backchecks. > Break up > the fibrous material in the tubes with a wire and vacuum out, or > else allow > the shanks to hang vertical and shake-'n-tap the powder out. > > Am probably forgetting something. Will post more when I know (or > remember) > more. > > I know that Bruce Clark is storehouse of knowledge here, but I am also > interested in varied input and experience from working techs. > > Thanks > > -- > Nick Gravagne, RPT > AST Mechanical Engineering > > > > > -- > Nick Gravagne, RPT > AST Mechanical Engineering > > > > > -- > Nick Gravagne, RPT > AST Mechanical Engineering > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20100624/40bbf478/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 21:53:05 -0400 > From: Terry Farrell <mfarrel2 at tampabay.rr.com> > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Spilled wine > Message-ID: <0E76CFAD-FCC7-4569-8FA5-A67848FF5B4A at tampabay.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; > DelSp="yes" > > Or just recap? If the tone is bad, is there a soundboard problem? A > stain is only cosmetic. > > Terry Farrell > > On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:12 PM, Marcel Carey wrote: > >> I've had to cleanup this kind of mess a few years ago. I removed the >> strings and used alcool or acetone to remove the stains. You might >> as well remove the bridge pins and re-install them with ca or epoxy. >> I suspect the string contact with the pins must have some kind of >> sugar left behind. >> >> >> Marcel Carey, >> >> Sherbrooke, QC >> >>> From: joespiano at gmail.com >>> To: pianotech at ptg.org >>> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:30:20 -0400 >>> Subject: [pianotech] Spilled wine >>> >>> Dear list, >>> I service a Bechstein B, housed in the Consulate General of Germany >>> residence in New York City that has a wine stain on the treble >> bridge, >>> where John Negroponte spilled his drink a few years ago. Of course, >>> it looks bad, but the tone is poorer now for this libation. It is a >>> bare wood bridge cap. I am hoping someone out there might have an >>> idea as to how to treat the cleaning. My concern is that the shape >> of >>> the bridge cap will change or be negatively affected by the cleaning >>> process. I am not sure which is an appropriate method- removing with >>> some sort of solution, or sanding, or both? >>> >>> Any ideas that might help restore our image in the eyes of German >>> public? >>> >>> Joe Wiencek >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> Courez la chance de voir la photo de votre coin de pays sur Bing.ca >> Soumettez une photo maintenant! > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20100624/2dd104ec/attachment.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech mailing list > pianotech at ptg.org > http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/pianotech > > > End of pianotech Digest, Vol 20, Issue 94 > ***************************************** Joe Wiencek
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