So to with tuning a piano. Although one must listen with his ears to a piano to appreciate the beauty of the harmony created, putting a piano in as perfect of tune as possible comes down to purely mathematical relationships, whether one is tuning by ear or by machine. Simply put, minimizing the discord between partials and maximizing the harmony is what its all about. The ETD I currently use, the Verituner, is calibrated to the piano before a single note is tuned. Starting with A4 and A3, the machine records the relative frequency of each of the first 8 partials for each note. I generally go on to run from A2 to A5, letting the machine read each note's partials. I then set the Verituner to calculate the tuning. Using the information it has measured and recorded, it sets the temperament for the piano using computations that are far beyond my pint-sized intellect. Chuck Thank you for you very eloquently stated remarks. The ETD does indeed create, in most pianos, a temperament that not all aural tuner will be able to match. If all you do is tune the piano with the machine, and leave the instrument alone, then the tuning the ETD created will most likely be very pleasing to the ear. But here is where it gets complicated, and this is what I was trying to ask Duaine, I guess, in a sense, you. After you've tuned the piano with the Verituner, or any other ETD, and you do some aural checks of the octaves, as Duaine says he does, what do you do when an octave doesn't sound right? According to Duaine, he adjusts one of the notes of the octave to make the octave sound "pure". First, as soon as you change one note of the tuning, aren't you changing the tuning the ETD put on the piano? There is nothing wrong with doing that, because now you're making minor changes to make it sound more musical. But here is the big question, the one I asked Duaine. Let's say you hear an octave out of tune. (C4-C5). How do you decide which note to change? But more importantly, how do you know that the note you're changing is going to be in tune with the fifth below that, or the octave and fifth, or double octave? How do you know that changing the top note isn't going to throw off the temperament that you asked the ETD to put on the piano in the first place. In other words, to paraphrase you, how can you understand the relationship of the notes of the piano, when you don't understand the math and physics involved? Wim -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Behm <behmpiano at gmail.com> To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> Sent: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 12:11 pm Subject: [pianotech] Opinions vary. Could we leave it at that? On 02/03/2011 09:28 PM, Wim Blees wrote: > This is meant for Duaine, but also other tuners who use an ETD exclusively. Statements recently made by Wim: 1. When you tune an octave and/or a unison, how do you know which string of the unison, or which note of the octave to tune? How do you know which one is right? 2. I hate to burst your bubble, Duaine, but everyone who uses an ETD checks their tuning aurally. That's what were supposed to do. The difference is, unlike you, everyone else knows what they are doing when they aurally check their tuning. They know how to listen for beats, and do all the various checks, like thirds, double octaves, etc. 3. You're somewhat right. I am not necessarily trying to "bait" him, but I am interested in how he uses his machine to tune a piano. He says he is a hybrid tuner, one who uses aural checks, but perhaps he doesn't understand what he is doing, and perhaps we, or I, can give him some help in that case. That is, if he is willing to accept some help. Wim< Wim - Duaine is not the only one being mule-headed here. You could try listening to others as well. Here are some thoughts to consider, before going on and on about the deficiencies of the tuner who chooses to use an ETD. To back up a few days, Susan Kline wrote a very eloquent piece recently about the timelessness of aural tuning, speaking of the beautiful underlying architecture of the temperament that the aural tuner brings to light (sorry if I'm misquoting you, Susan. I'm speaking from memory). The thing of it is, that underlying architecture of the temperament exists and is waiting to be revealed by the tuner - but whether the tuner uses his ears or a machine to set the pieces of that architecture in place, it doesn't matter. It's there to be discovered and revealed, and the end result, if the piano is tuned by someone who knows his business, is a beautiful thing. The relationship between the vibrating strings of a piano is, after all, mathematical. Compare the beauty of strings vibrating in harmony with one another to the eternal celestial dance of the planets of our solar system around our sun. Understanding the relationship of the heavenly bodies of our solar system comes down in the end to an understanding of the math and physics involved. If you know the mass of a planet and the distance of that planet from the sun, you may deduce its orbital velocity. It all comes down to numbers. To appreciate the beauty of our solar system, however, nothing can top the experience of actually looking at a planet through a powerful telescope and seeing it with your own eyes. The first time you see first hand at the mountains of the moon, the rings around Saturn, or Jupiter's giant Red Spot, it will take your breath away. So to with tuning a piano. Although one must listen with his ears to a piano to appreciate the beauty of the harmony created, putting a piano in as perfect of tune as possible comes down to purely mathematical relationships, whether one is tuning by ear or by machine. Simply put, minimizing the discord between partials and maximizing the harmony is what its all about. The ETD I currently use, the Verituner, is calibrated to the piano before a single note is tuned. Starting with A4 and A3, the machine records the relative frequency of each of the first 8 partials for each note. I generally go on to run from A2 to A5, letting the machine read each note's partials. I then set the Verituner to calculate the tuning. Using the information it has measured and recorded, it sets the temperament for the piano using computations that are far beyond my pint-sized intellect. >From that starting point I tune the piano. Being that it has mathematically calculated the best tuning for the entire piano, not just for one particular note, I set the temperament string for each note at the exact point it has chosen, then tune the outside strings to the temperament string by ear. I do not, as you have suggested Wim do "the various checks, like thirds, double octaves, etc." Why would I, when I trust my equipment to do the job of finding the "sweet spot" for each note where harmony is maximized, and discord is minimized. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. As I mentioned recently, I have logged over 5000 tunings on my Verituner. I can't honestly remember ever losing a customer to another tuner, aural or otherwise. If you and others enjoy tuning completely by ear, and are convinced of its benefits, fine. I'm sure your tunings are first-rate. That your tuning is necessarily better than the tuner who uses an ETD, I don't believe for one minute. I know what works best in my own individual case. The day I start hearing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th partials in my head for every string, and can calibrate them and remember them to degree that my Verituner can (plus put them all in the best possible relationship using logarithms devised at lightening quick speed) is the day I'll get rid of my machine and tune completely by ear. It ain't going to happen. Chuck Behm P.S. Sarcastic comments that are intended to deflate another tuner's sense of worth really get old, at least for me. I would like to be able to read thoughtful posts made by people of differing opinions without getting the feeling that I've inadvertently tuned in to a Jerry Springer show. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20110205/571e8921/attachment.htm>
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