Hi Dale:
If I want to be heard by the most people, the pianotech list is the place to
go. And judging by the flood of discussion, most people are quite content
to do it here for now.
I must admit that, other than reiterating your point that this discussion
should be on PTG-L, you have chosen not to respond to my points and
questions in my message sent this morning. I am disappointed. I had hoped
for more of a dialog, because the dialog, regardless of who is "right",
educates us and moves us toward a consensus that belongs to all of us. I
don't own the truth or all the facts, nor do any of us. Which is why the
fullest participation by the most people is the best way to move towards a
consensus as to what works and we can see what most of us want.
I am interested in the best solution, even as I have a strong point of view.
I don't have to be right, which means I can be persuaded if you are armed
with better facts and stronger arguments. In the best world, that goes
both ways. And we can do all of this with a smile on our face and avoid
getting into personalities.
Respectfully yours,
Will Truitt
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Dale Probst
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:49 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L(OT)
Dale,
When I said get involved here's what I meant. If you want to effect change
in the organization you have to do "politics". It's nobody's "gift of
service" in my opinion. It's a dirty job with no pay, more than your fair
share of abuse and absolutely minimal gratitude for the time spent.
As to whether it should be here or on PTG-L: ptg-l was set up to discuss
these issues in order to keep the pianotech list for piano technology. My
suggestion would be that if you want to be heard ptg-l is the place to go
but it's your choice.
Thanks for all you do for PTG,
Dale
Dale Probst RPT
Registered Piano Technician
Ward & Probst, Inc.
www.wardprobst.com <http://www.wardprobst.com/>
dale at wardprobst.com
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Dale Erwin
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:42 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L
Will
Thanks for leading the charge on this. Either we have a voice, rights and
privileges for being members or we don't. So If we have a voice, we speak.
Compromise is the way to preserve relationship. We each give a little.
Dale I've been at this 40 years. I don't do politics,.. I teach and
exhibit, given tuning test, chapter pres. etc. etc.
I have also as amny on this list, contributed voluntarily to the
educational knowledge base on this list hundreds/thousands of man hours of
time as have SO many . To say to many of us to.." get involved" is not
seeing the rest of us as you see your self. We are involved and engaged. Our
voices are asking to be heard on two issues.
Many of us have given up as countless hours doing other jobs in the
organization as those men that you mention. It doesn't make us ungrateful
for those that do the political job. That's there gift of service.
Dels point and mine is that there is only so much I am going to give, or
any family man is going to give up without some compensation, including you
and the other guys that serve. Its reality.
Thanks for what you do!
Dale S. Erwin
<http://www.Erwinspiano.com> www.Erwinspiano.com
209-577-8397
209-985-0990
Ronsen hammers/prep
Sitka Sound boards
Belly packages
Poor decisions are rarely made right by a greater commitment to them.
"David Love"
-----Original Message-----
From: Encore Pianos <encorepianos at metrocast.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 3:22 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L
Hi Dale:
With respect, I think that the discussion is taking place exactly where it
should - where the largest number of participants are going to read it and
respond to it. Given the huge number of posts on the topic of the new forum
in the past few days, clearly this is a topic of importance to many. If it
were on PTG-L, likely far fewer people would be aware of it. For myself, I
don't make a point of frequenting PTG-L and probably would miss a good deal
of discussion there. I doubt that I am the only one whose reading habits
are like that.
I simply do not understand what you mean when you say participation in this
listserve are down because fewer posts are on topic or piano related?
Keeping posts on topic has always been a problem with the old format, yet
many of those strings of posts ran incredible lengths and garnered many
participants. Excepting the large response generated in the last few days
discussing the forum's future and shape, the number of posts period had
dropped dramatically once the new forum was implemented, even when you
combine the new and old formats. Some statistics showing the number of
posts, taken from the archives that demonstrate the pattern of which I
speak:
January 2011 - 1872
February - 1480
March - 1139
April - 345
May - 235
Even taking into account the normal ups and downs of participation, it
seems clear that the implementation of the new format hugely dampened
participation - from March to April, the drop was 70 percent. In March,
there was a huge amount of discussion, questions, and complaints on the new
forum that swelled those numbers. May's numbers were a mere 12.5% of
January's. If you were to read all of the posts on this topic in the last
few days, it is hard to conclude anything but that there is broad
dissatisfaction with the new format. Yes, there have been defenders who
have written in, but they are few by comparison. So I don't believe that
your argument holds water.
The workaround to keep the listserve going for a while would be good, while
PTG sorts this thing out. I think we should not be putting any more time
and money into the migration into the new format until the direction we will
take is clearly established. Many of us are for cutting our losses and
dumping the new format. But that does not mean that we are simply against
any change. I recognize and accept the problems that the old list has had
and will continue to have. One solution in the short term would be to pay
someone to do the housekeeping of the old listserve, since we are paying out
money each month for the new format in administrative and other costs. Your
point about the very hard work of volunteers is well made, but that said
doesn't make the Higher Logic program a good one, and does not change the
fact that it is so unsuccessful in attracting or holding participants that
it has greatly shrunken the use of the Forum by PTG members. My interest is
in keeping the Pianotech Forum vital and healthy, which it is not presently.
I am all for finding a really good e-mail program that will meet all of our
needs and be widely accepted and used. From what I know about the Higher
Logic program, it is used by other groups and has been around for a while.
So it seems telling that it remains very flawed and buggy, and the interface
is not likely to morph into something that listserve readers are going to
like and want to use anytime soon. So, let's move on to something better,
after taking the time to do the research and testing to emerge with
something that most of us will like and want to use. If that new program is
not something that can be integrated with the other new software, so be it.
It is more important to keep the Forum alive.
Will Truitt
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [
<mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On
Behalf Of Dale Probst
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:02 AM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Stuff Which Should Really Be on PTG-L
Hi Alan et al,
Whoever told you $10-$50 would do it was misinformed. I think dues would
have to double for the convention to be free. With a large increase we
would lose a significant percentage of the membership that makes a moving
target that is hard to calculate but that's my best guess. Doubling dues
won't have much effect if half the membership resigns
I've been reading a lot of posts and have a few comments which I'm sure
won't be received in the spirit they are intended but here they are. First,
participation in this listserve is down because fewer posts are on topic or
piano related. There have been more piano related posts on the new site
that's why some of us have spent more time there. Second, I believe some
workaround compromise will come about to keep the lists going longer. My
question is how many of the people who have complained are ready to serve as
admins or do other thankless jobs to keep these antiquated listserves going?
Don't bother telling me how much you dislike the Higher Logic site and that
these listserves are perfect. I heard complaints for years about these
listserves and their jumbled digests, archives and other issues when I was
on the Board.
On the topic of instructor reimbursements- it's simple math. With
registration prices lower this year, less could be reimbursed to instructors
because the budget of PTG depends upon income from the convention to pay
bills. I understand that instructors put a lot of time into presentations,
I've taught before. Board members put in a lot of time also, as do examiners
and other volunteer members. Del hit it right on the head when he said PTG
was a volunteer organization that was built by a generous spirit of
volunteerism. I can tell you first hand it still is and we are still
building. How to get from a totally volunteer organization to one where some
folks get reimbursed has been a problem that we have yet to solve. I do know
that it will never be amenable to everyone, no matter what we do.
As to "the absence of some of our finest independent instructors" at the
annual PTG convention- these will be the first classes I've have had a
chance to attend to since 1997 and I'm looking forward to them. There are
new classes and new faces and that is not altogether a bad thing. Do I wish
some of my old friends would be there? You bet! I also wish that my friends
could find some value in attending these new classes whether they were
teaching or not. I've been at this 30 years and I've yet to find a class
that didn't make me a better tech for attending. I'll grant that some do
more of that than others but the worst I ever attended was pretty darn good.
I wish you all the best and I hope to see some of you in KC.
Dale
PS Please keep in mind that these folks some of you are criticizing so
vehemently are volunteers you elected who take time away from their families
and work to serve. In my experience Board service at the RVP level takes a
month out of your year and it don't get better if you move up to the
Executive Committee. If you really feel motivated to make changes, sign up
and get involved. I can tell you from personal experience, one motivated
person can make a difference.
Dale Probst RPT
Registered Piano Technician
Ward & Probst, Inc.
<http://www.wardprobst.com/> www.wardprobst.com
<mailto:dale at wardprobst.com> dale at wardprobst.com
-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org> pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [
<mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org?> mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On
Behalf Of Alan Eder
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 6:01 PM
To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] teaching money,(was Irritated )
Hi Mark,
I am deeply concerned about the absence of some of our finest independent
instructors at this year's national convention.
I would also rather pay higher dues and/or registration than to see the
quality of instruction diminish, but I'm also sensitive to the needs of
beginning technicians who may truly have trouble affording the cost of
attending.
I recently heard that someone (named Carl Lieberman?) calculated that with a
modest increase in dues (was it $50? or $10? Carl?), convention registration
could be free to all comers. Sure, everyone would still have to get
themselves there and pay for a room (hey, you have to eat whether you are at
home or on the road), but this would enormously increase the incentive to
attend conventions ('cause it's already paid for--take it, or leave it).
This approach, coupled with the kind of respect, both verbal and monetary,
exemplified by some of our better one-day seminars and regional conventions,
could enable the nationals to not only return to their former glory, but to
surpass it by showing that we truly value excellence in instruction and seek
to promote our own professionalism.
I appreciate your involvement in this issue and thank you for taking the
time to hear me out.
Alan Eder
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