Pinning and Tone

[Joe And Penny Goss]

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MessageWith one handle or without one
Joe Goss
imatunr@srvinet.com
www.mothergoosetools.com
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: David's Email=20
  To: oleg-i@noos.fr ; College and University Technicians=20
  Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:24 AM
  Subject: Re: Pinning and Tone


  With a handle

  David I.
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Isaac sur Noos=20
    To: College and University Technicians=20
    Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 12:56 AM
    Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone


    Don Mannino, hello,

    I noticed that Kaway with their ABS flange tend to take too much =
play in the pinning indeed. As I understand it, because when the bushing =
grows, the part can't swell because of the material, and when getting =
dry after, some play is installed.

    I came to a few pianos where the birseye itself have developped =
ovalisation with time (1978 models).
    So, while I like a lot the grand jack, I am far from convinced with =
the other parts, for instance noise and extra friction on RX... grand =
whippen lever, kind of feeling the weight and texture of the damper =
lever in RX series.

    ABS does not give as tone, only thump. And I regret this, because I =
appreciate your grands, after having installed in them firm Yamaha front =
punchings (discard those cotton style punchings !) and regulate them so =
the touch is more light, they tone very well generally (I mean for the =
soundboard/strings/hammers parts)

    By the way are the broaches you sell to be used without a handle ?.

    Best Regards.



    Isaac OLEG

    Entretien et r=E9paration de pianos.

    PianoTech
    17 rue de Choisy
    94400 VITRY sur SEINE
    FRANCE
    tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98
    fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90
    cell: 06 60 42 58 77=20

      -----Message d'origine-----
      De : caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]De la part =
de Don Mannino
      Envoy=E9 : mercredi 22 octobre 2003 19:20
      =C0 : College and University Technicians
      Objet : RE: Pinning and Tone


      Alan,

      I see what you're getting at.  I don't know of any simple answer =
to troubleshooting the friction other than removing parts and testing =
for friction.  You can do general troubleshooting by swinging the action =
to find the loosest and tightest parts, and you can measure down and =
upweight to get general friction levels, but removing parts and feeling =
the softness of the bushing and checking the friction with a spring =
gauge are really the definitive way to know what's up.

      Here are some pertinent thoughts, though I'm not sure I can give =
you any real helpful procedures to follow:

      - Too much friction causes a dull tone with poor projection and =
sometimes poor sustain.  It affects the action performance as well, of =
course.
      - Too little friction causes no problems in tone at all in and of =
itself.  It is only because we are using cloth bushings that low =
friction results in poor tone because the hammer is not controlled in =
its motion well enough.  Please understand me here - if you have a very, =
very firm bushing that will pin with low friction and still have =
excellent side control, the tone should be fine.  It is the limitation =
of using a soft bushing material that forces us to pin with sufficient =
friction to get the control we need.  It is not the friction itself =
which gives good tone - it is the firmness of the bushing.
      - Teflon bushings gave excellent tone with 0 friction, but they =
didn't last long enough.  They were an excellent idea, but the bushing =
material was not nearly as durable as good bushing cloth, so it deformed =
with use and got noisy.
      - Poor quality cloth forces us to use more friction in the center =
to get the controlled motion of the hammer.  I used to work on some =
grand pianos in the 80s that came from the factory with very poor, =
spongy cloth in the hammer centers.  I would re-size the bushings with =
water and alcohol, then repin from the factory #19 pins up to #20 1/2 =
pins.  This made thinner, firmer bushings, allowed pinning at about 2 - =
4 grams friction, and resulted in dramatically improved tone.  These =
pianos were dull and lifeless from the factory with 6 to 10 grams =
friction in the soft hammer centers, and a firm fit with lower friction =
really made them sing.

      So, when evaluating friction levels in a given piano, I judge by =
sound and by feel of the parts, and decide how to work with them.  Now I =
work mostly with Kawai parts, and the bushings are very firm with mostly =
excellent control of the hammer.  In dry climates they sometimes get too =
thin in tone because the hammer center bushings dry out and become too =
loose, and repinning them to fit the climate brings the power back up in =
the tone.  I find that if I pin for good solid tone in the mid treble, =
that same friction level is great for the whole piano.

      Don Mannino

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Alan McCoy [mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu]=20
        Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:30 AM
        To: College and University Technicians
        Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone


        Thanks Don,

        In part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing =
between friction and firmness in the bushing. Can you hear the tonal =
difference between a note that has a friction problem vs one that has a =
firmness problem?

        My normal procedure in reconditioning an action includes =
checking action center friction, duh, and I check side to side play =
gang-style checking for winking hammers, but I'm looking around to see =
if someone has figured out a way to systematically check for both =
friction and firmness in an efficient way (ie without painstakingly =
removing every flange!!)

        Alan

        PS Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-)   Hope things =
are great down there in Modesto.
          -----Original Message-----
          From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]On =
Behalf Of Don Mannino
          Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:11 AM
          To: caut@ptg.org
          Subject: FW: Pinning and Tone


          Alan,

          The tone of the piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning =
has a pretty distinctive sound to it.  I would describe it as a thin and =
weak tone.  Checking the friction level in a thin sounding note, =
repinning it, and listening will tell you a lot.

          Experience is the best teacher here.  I don't have a =
specification to tell you, except firm enough by feel and a good solid =
tone by ear.  I suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though.  X =
amount of deflection with Y amount of force applied Z distance from the =
pin.

          Don Mannino

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