: o Hey now... I dunno.. if I'm ever going to do that, I'll have a *full suit of armor* on!! ; ) *The Kimball console with strings that broke in the midrange*. That's exactly what happens to me. You said "the breaking point will vary depending on where you are in the scale". Can you explain this more? (For I imagine they'd break more up at the top octaves rather than right in the middle....) All this time I was thinking I introduced some "extra" type of tension- (that I could feel) that wouldn't normally be on there if this had been close to pitch upon my arrival. I would love to see some wacky scientific experiment with lighted gizmo's showing me what's happening (at the tuning pin especially) after I yank 50-75 cents of string tension around it. On Jan 9, 2007, at 4:35 PM, ed440 at mindspring.com wrote: > A good experiment is to intentionally break strings on a piano > that's going to be junked. WEAR EYE PROTECTION. Tune a string as > unison with it's upper neighbor, and the next upper neighbor, and > the next.... > > The breaking point will vary depending on where you are in the > scale. You will come away with a clear sense of what kind of > overpull it takes to break a normal string. > > I recently raised pitch on a 1990's Kimball console. Three > midrange strings in a row broke just as they approached pitch. That > clearly was a problem with the wire. > > Another time bass strings were popping from a container shipment > of Korean vertricals. A careful check showed the strings had been > seated with a sharp edged screwdriver, leaving nicks in the wire at > the top bridge. > > Work hardened strings (heavily played) will break when they are > ready, raising or lowering pitch, or with a pianissimo hammer > blow. They break because they are so close to breaking that any > disturbance does the job. > > There is also some chance that a #4 tuning tip on a #2 pin could > work like a becket breaker and snap the becket. > > If you're using the right tool on the right tuning pin and not > massively overpulling, it really is the string's fault or the > piano's fault if a string breaks. > Break a few on purpose and you'll give up lots of guilt. > > Ed Sutton > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Mitch Staples <staples.13 at osu.edu> >> Sent: Jan 9, 2007 2:07 PM >> To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> >> Subject: Re: [CAUT] huge pitch raise question >> >> Michelle, >> >> Tuners don't break strings, strings break when they're under >> stress. Often >> tuning is when the strings are most stressed -that's my story and I'm >> sticking to it. >> >> I don't break a lot of strings but if the piano has gone a long >> time without >> tuning I tell the owner to expect a string or two to break. Then >> when the >> tuning's done and no strings have broken we all breath a sigh of >> relief and >> hopefully they don't wait so long to have it tuned next time. I >> would say >> that each year about two or three strings break. >> >> In 20 years I've only had one string break on the second pass so I >> don't >> know what to say about that (maybe I broke 'em all on the first >> try). If >> it's happening a lot maybe you're rocking back and forth over the >> object >> pitch a bit too much. >> >> I usually don't move the pin to the left first, but if I feel some >> initial >> friction I do. I think that rocking the pin back and forth >> increases wear >> on the pin block. Also I think that my tunings are more stable if >> I move as >> directly as possible from point A to point B. >> >> I try to bring the whole piano to pitch in one pass without more >> that 10 >> cents or so over pull. If the piano is new I'll go as much as 30 >> cents. If >> the piano is old, no over pull at all. It's seems to me that >> older pianos >> don't need so much. 95% of the time one pass will do it. For >> improved >> stability the quicker I can get through a pitch raise the better. >> You can >> get through many pitch raises without using mutes accept in the >> temperament >> 8ve. It takes some practice but it saves about 10 minutes of what I >> consider pure torture. An ETD helps as it will usually ignore the >> incorrect >> pitch in favor of the target pitch. As long as the piano is >> generally at >> pitch the fine tuning is as solid as ever. I usually warn people >> that after >> a big pitch raise the fine tuning won't be as stable as it will >> when the >> piano is maintained properly. >> >> I've noticed the increase tork you mentioned. I figure it's a >> combination >> of increased tension and the pin being screwed deeper into the block. >> >> >> Mitch Staples >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org]On Behalf Of >> Michelle Stranges >> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 2:07 PM >> To: College and University Technicians >> Subject: [CAUT] huge pitch raise question >> >> >> Hi folks- >> >> Happy New Year! >> >> :D >> >> It happens more often than I'd like (and once is enough to be honest) >> and while I "feel" that it's not my lovely hammer technique ;) , >> maybe it's something to do with some sort of "string thing".. >> >> Has anyone else run across this? >> (Or maybe a PTG article I have overlooked?) >> >> Upon visiting a fairly new piano and finding it dreadfully flat (50 >> cents or more) , I carefully yet quickly, raise it up at least half >> of what it was. >> And I do have a (good?) habit of initially moving the pin in the flat >> direction before moving it sharp in order to loosen any friction from >> any rust or whatever that may have accumulated. Just a *quick* jerk >> to the left- nothing serious at all. >> >> Now.. having raised the piano up (with a second pass to at least get >> it up to pitch) I start doing a "fine tuning". >> >> it is either at this second pass or my fine tuning where strings >> start to break. >> In the usual places too- nothing out of the ordinary. >> >> (Am I doing "too many tunings" (up to 3 times) to raise this >> completely up? Seems like that wouldn't be an issue, especially if >> it's new(er)? >> Have I introduced some sort of unusual friction/heat or something?? >> >> >> Now this doesn't happen all of the time, but I am acutely aware that >> it could and I wonder if there's something in my technique or my >> sequence of pitch raising that makes these newer strings break. (I >> could understand some strings breaking if the piano was older..) >> >> I know tuners who on the first go, bring the whole piano up tp pitch >> but I've always been a little leary of that. >> I'm wondering if they also have strings break on their second pass/ >> fine tuning.. >> >> I fully realize that they (the strings) are now at different spots on >> all of the contact and termination points so I would assume that >> would add to the puzzle. >> And I'd like to also add that it seems that the tork alone on this >> 1/2 way-to-pitch, pitch raised piano feels MUCH higher than it did >> before (and more than "normal") and I chalk that up to the higher >> tension I have just introduced. >> >> I am a jerk tuner. >> >> (Stop laughing :) >> >> I would be VERY interested in viewing the number of passes you folks >> do to bring a piano up to pitch and whether or not you've >> experienced this-especially on ones that aren't so old. >> >> Hope this post reads OK- and I look forward to your responses! >> >> :) >> Michelle >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC