Hello Dave, I guess I should be more thorough in my explanation of ghosting octaves. First of all, I should admit that I implement ghosting randomly, primarily when I am not satisfied with or certain about the result I get with the cheque I use that refers to the same partial of both notes in the octave, e.g., the minor sixth above the fundamental, or bottom note, of the 8:4 octave, or the way my parallel thirds, tenths, and seventeenths progress, or simply the way the single octave sounds. I also do it to impress clients. I am not sure it is working. I don't think it is impressing you. Some do call me back, however, and it's not because I am the cheapest in town. You stated in the below post: I disagree with "ghosting the whole piano". The idea of ghosting the bass is to isolate upper partials that are otherwise muddied or hidden by the sheer volume of noise being produced by the low bass strings. It's not necessary in the middle or upper end of the piano where the partials in question are much more clearly audible. In the upper end of the piano ghosting is relatively useless. I in part understand what you are saying to an extent. I only resort to ghosting when I am unsure as to how well I am hearing the partial in the mid-section, which I am perfectly willing to admit, is not always very well. In fact, however, it seems that ghosting this way happens most consistently for me when tuning 12:6 octaves, obviously an octave for the lower range of the piano, which concurs with your findings. The explanation of ghosting you provided will work primarily in the bass alone, so it is understandable why you reserve ghosting for just the bass. On this subject on 6/5/09, you explained the ghost tuning of a 6:3 C1-C2 this way: "If you're testing a 6:3 octave (for example) then you would hold down C1 and C2 so that the dampers are lifted off the strings but the hammers don't actually strike the strings. Hold down mute, it's called, and then strike (not hold down), strike and let go of the G3. Striking G3 will excite the 6th partial of C1 and the 3rd partial of C2 in isolation. You then can listen for the beats that form between that particular coincident partial without the confusion of the other partials. If you are tuning a pure 6:3 octave then you manipulate the lower note (presumably) until it is beatless." When I am forcing 6:3 octaves into the capo section of a Steinway B there are a number of considerations you did not explain where ghosting is concerned in this section of the piano that perhaps are less necessary in the bass. I will assume that the reader understands that the dampers end on most pianos before you reach C8, so some manual method of muting will need to be implemented when checking partials without dampers, which as necessary I do with the help of the sostenuto pedal. However, what I meant by ghosting the F5 F6 octave to be a 6:3 octave is not what you described above. First, I would hold down as necessary manually and by sostenuto pedal, depending on damper placement, F5 and a check for the 6:3 octave for F5 F6, C7, i.e. F5 C7, though on many pianos the C7 does not have a damper, and then play C8 and mute the partial string, i.e. C8, manually, and determine the bps of this interval, the F5 C7 at the C8 partial, the cheque and the bottom note, or fundamental, of the octave, and try to match this with the bps of F6 C7, the cheque and the top note of the octave, in the coincident partial, C8, again, manually muting C8 immediately after playing it. This is contrary to what you described in the above explanation, as that this would also take the cheque note in order for it to work. What you described, I agree completely, would essentially be useless in the procedure in the upper part of the keyboard, yes, so, I would have to conclude we are not engaging in a discussion that could be considered entirely to be a dichotomy, though I still try using just the octave from time to time up there. It just is not as effective. This is happening less frequently as I become more confident in my ability to hear the partials in the first place without implementing the ghosting method but usually tuning at about an hour including it when necessary. - Ben From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:15 AM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] ghost tuning I disagree with "ghosting the whole piano". The idea of ghosting the bass is to isolate upper partials that are otherwise muddied or hidden by the sheer volume of noise being produced by the low bass strings. It's not necessary in the middle or upper end of the piano where the partials in question are much more clearly audible. In the upper end of the piano ghosting is relatively useless. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Sloane, Benjamin (sloaneba) Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 6:48 AM To: 'caut at ptg.org' Subject: Re: [CAUT] ghost tuning Hello Wim, It would be easier to address your question more directly if you told us what kind of piano you are tuning, i.e., if we were all sitting in front of the same piano. For the most part, I would have to answer generally that you should be ghost tuning the whole piano, not just the bass. Though Visual Aid programming starts 2:1 octaves a lot sooner than this, only at C# 7 do you begin to tune octaves without a partial represented by a string above it in the typical 88 note piano. The distribution of octaves I have experienced with visual aids, in my opinion, will work, if you only tune certain spinets. The distribution of octaves depends on a lot of things, most of all, what you think is right. Nobody can tell you what octaves to ghost in the bass, because the scaling in every piano is different, and everyone has their own convictions about this. Unless you use an ETD, that is. Since the recent epidemic in ETD addiction however, many tuners are now clueless about this. They never aural tune enough to have an opinion in the first place. I've aural tuned enough to be genuinely offended, even shocked, by the type of octaves more transparent visual aids tell me it is programmed to set in the sundry regions of the piano. Being passionate about temperament and the distribution of octaves is something that by in large, piano technicians scoff at as a neglect of more important aspects of the field-leave it to the visual aid programmers-so much so that we have developed a reductionist dialectic about tuning. Instead of figuring out correct temperament in parley, the whole argument is: "ETD vs. aural!" when all the ETD does is a tuning based on aural determinations that in themselves may or may not be right. We also harbor the presumption that is what ETD programmers intended. I don't get the impression that all ETD programmers themselves even meant for this to happen, either, and it is clear to me that some are meant to educate the user much as help him or her tune. - Ben From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of wimblees at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:37 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] ghost tuning David Please explain a little more. What am I listening for when I hold down the two bass notes, and what interval are you using? If I hold down C1 & C2, what other note should I play, and what should I hear? Wim -----Original Message----- From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: caut at ptg.org Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [CAUT] ghost tuning Hold down two bass notes (an octave apart) and strike the note the corresponds to the coincident harmonic that you want to use as the test partial. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com<http://www.davidlovepianos.com/> From: caut-bounces at ptg.org<mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org> [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org<mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org?>] On Behalf Of wimblees at aol.com<mailto:wimblees at aol.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:55 PM To: caut at ptg.org<mailto:caut at ptg.org> Subject: [CAUT] ghost tuning Some time ago a tuner told me about ghost tuning the bass. I tried it a couple of times, but I've not used it for a long time, and forgot how it's done. From what I remember, you hold down a bass note, and listen to a partial an octave and third up, or the other way around. Does anyone know about this? Wim ________________________________ Shopping for Mom? Save yourself a little time and money on AOL Shopping<http://shopping.aol.com/mothers-day-gifts-for-mom?ncid=emlweinstor00000003>. ________________________________ Shopping for Mom? Save yourself a little time and money on AOL Shopping<http://shopping.aol.com/mothers-day-gifts-for-mom?ncid=emlweinstor00000003>. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut_ptg.org/attachments/20090506/b2896369/attachment-0001.html>
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