This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Servinsky=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:58 AM Subject: Re: more on this temperament tangent ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Billbrpt@AOL.COM=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: more on this temperament tangent In a message dated 11/2/01 8:15:08 AM Central Standard Time, = Tvak@AOL.COM=20 writes:=20 Orchestral music is played in just intonation. Each player = constantly tunes=20 his instrument adjusting each note.=20 Let me zip up my flame suit first...there! If you agree to the Harvard Music Dictionary definition of Just = Intonation as the 3rd and 5ths, and octaves being tuned pure, the basis = for orchestra tuning is strongly influenced byJust Intonation. = Obviously, orchestras don't embrace Just Intonation to the degree a = keyboard would be tuned, but they do have some similarities in that the = agreed tuning of those intervals (3rd, 5th, and octave) remains pure. The basic premise for classical and modern orchestra interval tuning = still encourages the pureness of the 3rd, 5ths, and octave. There are = exceptions to that rule, but in general, that is the agreed tuning of = those intervals. Is that Just Intonation? Well, yes, sort of. Is it grounds for a good arguement? If you abide by the rules of = Just Intonation compared to the agreed tuning acceptance of the 3rd, = 5th, and octaves in orchestra use...the argument exists. Does vibrato = affect the purity? Of course.=20 Do players "bend " the notes to fit the pitch so the interval remains = in the pure state?=20 Without question. Regardless of the work, listen to a Verdi opera, Rossini overture, = or Stravinksy's Firebird, and pay close attention to the way the = orchestra players tune those described intervals. Better yet, try = zeroing in on , say the principle oboe player, and listen carefully to = how he approaches and resolves those intervals. Influences of Just = Intonation are throughout. As a performer in the wind section, play a = beating 3rd in a slow movement you might as well kiss your job good bye. = If 2 clarinets are playing in octaves, they better be absolutely = pure.Same with the 3rds or 5ths. Now the other side of the argument it can be stated loud and clear if = Just Intonation is used, and if you follow the complete rules of Just = Intonation as it relates to temperament ,it also states that G# and Ab = will end up sounding 2 different pitches. Modulation would also be = impossible. Scale patterns would be uneven. And that's where the similarites stop. Orchestra tuning is unique = because it does use the 3rd,5th, and octaves as pure intervals, but = remains in a flexible state to accomodate key change, where a keyboard = "Just Intonation" tuning is stuck in one mode with gross limitations = galore. If you want to hear orchestras which don't prescibe to this acceptance = to purity, listen to most Junior High Orchestras, or many community = orchestras with novice players, where the players haven't developed the = sensitvity and flexibility to pitch and interval understanding. Then = you'll treated to tempered intervals throughout, unintentionally. Temperament influencing composers.... Undoubtebly,composers have been and will always be influenced by = temperament. Most have been conditioned by the very fact that most = write their works from the keyboard. Not necessarily for the keyboard, = but through the keyboard. Think of the1000's of hrs. spent composing a = major symphony while slaving over a pianoforte tuned in WT, or today on = a Steinway D tuned in ET. The examples are too obvious where temperament = of the day influenced the style of writing. It's analogus to computers = and software programers. Programers are influenced and restricted by the = operating system of that computer's system. Someone working with Windows = will obviously be influenced the constraints and characteristics of that = system. Someone working with DOS, MAC systems will be conditioned = differently. Composers living during the Baroque period were obviously influenced = by the early temperaments as was Gershwin when writing his many great = works. =20 > Not in the minds of >composers. When a composer writes an=20 >orchestral piece, he thinks in just >intonation. =20 Well, then you would have to have an additional fingering for G# and = Ab, if you follow the notion the composer is thinking in complete Just = Intonation. Those would be 2 different pitches. Scale patterns would = also be modified. "Temperament exists only on the keyboard" Let's word that differently... "Temperament tuning only exists on the stringed keyboard." .... Back = to the Harvard Music Dictionary Temperament..."General designation for various systems of tuning in = which the intervals are tempered, i.e., they deviate from the = accoustically correct intervals of the Pythagorean scale and of Just = Intonation" Orchestras do not temper those intervals. But composers do write with = respect and regard to temperament. All the great composers we have been = eluding to were all influenced and conditioned through the effects of = keyboard temperament. These composers were extreme cases of pure genius = at work. They had an incredible amt.of understanding and sensitivity = towards the pros and cons of temperament, key color, and even a thorough = understanding for the instruments they were writing for. We haven't even = begun to dive into the problems each instrument brings to the table. Yet = these composers were able to work around a lot of hazzards and find the = inner most beauty and present it as a gift of pure delight. I often = wonder what if Mozart would have wrote differently if he was living = today. Better yet, what if he could have time traveled ahead 300 yrs. = and had the opportunity to experience writing music with different = temperaments and modern instruments. What if could have looked back and = wanted to change what he had written? This would make for an excellent forum at next year's convention in = Chicago. It sounds like there's some real passion from many on this = subject. Tom Servinsky,RPT ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/f4/09/d0/9f/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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