This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment de Billbrpt@AOL.COM Older tuners in Europe not tuning pure ET: For at least a century, ET has been the one and only temperament believed in. All other kinds not understood nor having any interest, ET has morphed into a curiously mild but backwards version of a Well Temperament. This has happened because tuners concentrate too much on trying to make the 4ths and 5ths too pure. The temperament sequence begins in the white keys. A too pure 5th creates a 3rd which is too wide. By the end of the sequence, something has to give, so the overly tempered 5ths among the black keys create 3rds which are too slow. *Voilą*, you get *Reverse Well*. I have the impression that this is not so simple ! The tuners I refer are tuning temperaments based on thirds, sixths, using 4ths an 5ths of course, and they can absolutely make a pure ET if they wish. They are in fact very attentive to the color of the fifths and not only in temperament, I only guess they are used to live these small differences in color, because they find it is better in the particular piano they tune (mostly the same make/models) Depending of their temperament generation method the most noticeable offs fifths can be F C, or Eb Bb for example, and I see that as their signature,nature when I m working after one of them. One of them (a younger in that case, uses a 4th & 5ths based temperament with too large a E fifth at first, and may be finish with what you call 'reverse Well' ) I use to consider the use of the thirds for accuracy, but the sound of fifths for quality ( and I use all kind of EDT too sometime if not always) Tuning a strictly third based temperament (as Sanderson Baldassin) is the actual method learned. Many can develop a feel for fithts an tenths flavor, then the 5ths will tend to be more pure and with no noticeable beat (or a tad expanded, where the beat is not very present) It has also been my observation and thus my belief that virtually all 20th Century music, including Jazz is also tonal and adheres to the same basic concept. Close, simple harmony is written in the simple, white keys. Sweeping, melodic and vibrant music uses the black keys. I find it very well interesting from a musical point of view, to hear pre 20th (21)century instruments and music in different temperament. It can be some help for the pianist, but the artifact may not hide the music, The color added from the start may not be so much present that it will be more noticeable than the musical intention. Don't know if I make myself clear , it is like if you have to play with a piano where all the notes are sounding so nice whatever the way you play ... Beside, from a technical point of view, I can't see how we could manage to tune a piano once one way, once another, it is difficult enough to have them stable and easy to maintain, not to be obliged to re-tune all more and more at any new configuration. I feel we have a lot to gain to learn the temperaments and I am inclined to work that (I've done a bit yet , but have not much applications), but this may be strictly aurally (checking with EDT if it is OK) to get a chance to understand the point . (my guess is) I sometime have to tune a piano using a simple 4ths and 5the based temperament, only because the precedent tuner have done that and I don't have time to change all, then I have to find his mood, and stay with it. It is amazing how I was able to be in his sound when I've done that. I guess I can say I learned to tune the 'reverse Well ' ;>) Since many pianists have been unknowingly and inadvertently subjected to Reverse Well, they have learned to do what I would call "bang harder" when playing Chopin just to get some kind of color out of the piano where it is lacking. For these people, a temperament which curiously goes contrary to the basic theories of how most HTs are constructed, why and how they are used seems to work. Not sure I understand, but the pianist polite comments generally are : "the piano had been in a cold and hot," or " it had moved a very little" , as the instrument had been tuned as that since the start. Steinway tuners tuning pure 5ths: This is natural to this instrument. It has a relatively high degree of inharmonicity compared to most other pianos. This leads naturally to a wider octave in the Temperament Sequence range, to purer 5ths and wider 3rds in this range and to virtually pure 5ths by the 5th octave and even slightly wide 5ths in the 6th and 7th octaves (also in the lowest octaves). The Steinway piano also lends itself to the so called, ET with pure 5ths idea. In Madison, Wisconsin, we call that the "New York Stretch". The big mistake that can be made is to try to do this with a piano which has lower inharmonicity or a small piano in someone's living room. At best, it will produce a very steely, harsh sounding piano but the usual result is Reverse Well. Believe me, I know, I have heard it literally thousands of times, here and most anywhere I have traveled. I don't know if The S&S pianos have big jumps in Inharmonicity from note to note, but tuning them to the edge of the stretch in the octaves produces always differences in fifths colors, only because one follow the natural stretch allowed by the piano, and this while sticking to a 'more or less 'Pure ET (I mean with very even thirds progression) The fact that these 5Ths color is not under another control than whose of the piano himself is another question B.M.O. Then, what is it we call "Pure E.T. ? Besides, I am much impressed by all the involvement made around the old tempering method, and find it very interesting. Isaac OLEG ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/e3/d1/cb/68/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC