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Mr. Bremmer
. I am not sure I understood all of what you were saying about unisons
while using my Tempered Octaves method. Yes, I use the strip mute and the
Sostenuto or Damper pedal to compare the Double Octave and 12th. I leave
the strip mute in the center section and progress all the way to the top
before tuning the unisons and then tune unisons from the top downwards.
I am not used to hear any clear stretch between 1 string and another only,
that seem clearer for me when at last 2 strings are singing at last for any
note of the interval tuned.
Not sure I agree with your method, while I am sure it gives good results.
The Coupled Motion String Effect, depending of the piano and the way
unisons are tuned, can really lend to pitch drop but to pitch raise as well
(mostly in the treble) I am not comfortable with the idea that when I will
tune the unison, the drift will be similar on the 2 notes. Regarding the
strip muting method, I noticed that people using this method (the few I've
seen) are comfortable with moderate to low stretch tunings always .
Even when you temper your octaves and the twelve's (or double) , with one
string only you are obliged to follow a theory rule and listen to beats.
Now if you tune one string against another one with the pedal engaged, I
think that it may be well possible you reproduce the CMSE a bit, but between
octave and double, if it is possible, so may be there is no error too.
When it is done with unison tuned it is only a natural tendency, that is
why I've find it so easy . May be the drawback is that I am exposed to much
more sound (ear fatigue), but , to my "so called perfect ear (and brain!)"
the comparison between 12th and double is something musical and Pythagorean,
so it please my ear.
It is funny I noticed too that my tunings can be astonishing when I was
tired and not trying too much to listen and focus on sound.
Regarding the "perfect ear" question that can lend to interminable
discussions, what I am sure is that if I listen to a piano tuned I
immediately hear where the tuning is musical and where not, that mean I will
accept HT or whatever as ET, but all may be in tune with the piano in a
musical fashion. What is nice is that I can catch immediately a note which
have drifted a little or unison problem, so the touch up at the intermede is
more efficient.
I like strip muting a lot for pitch raises, and may be for the less
fatigue it provide, but I simply can't hear the sound I am after if unisons
are not tuned. May be I could train myself in that too, and obtain less
fatigue.
I still leave the middle section muted to tune the Bass and its unisons
next and tune the middle unisons last. Although this is quite the opposite
of the way most people tune, I have good reason for doing it this way. For
one, the *Coupled Motion of Strings Effect* (CMSE), causes the pitch to drop
slightly when a full unison is played.
Therefore, I never tune a single string against a full unison. If there
is a drop in pitch after the unison is tuned, then I will not have tuned a
single string very precisely only to have it fall slightly flat of where I
want it to be when finished. I set the relationship between any two notes
as I intend, then if both drop slightly, there is no net negative effect.
That is there I I think there is place for error. The VT 100, showing an
estimate of pitch with all partials sounding, shows pretty well a 2cts drop
in the middle of a piano, while the drop can be 1 ct in the 6 octave to none
or even the over direction in the treble. That depends of your touch too of
course.
In the EBVT in the middle part of the piano, you can get the Major 3rd and
the Major 6th of any second inversion triad of any white key tonality except
F to beat exactly the same. Because you are from a different culture, you
may know certain ideas by different names than we do in North America.
Instead of a scale whose note names are "do re mi fa sol la ti do", we think
of the same thing as "C D E F G A B C".
Sorry my fault, was reading the 1st inversion. Not sure I have a clear
picture in mind , but is this test lending to any 6:4 relationship in the
5ths ? or a 6:3 type octave ?
The root position of the C Major triad is C-E-G. The 1st inversion is
E-G-C. The second inversion is G-C-E. In EBVT, the G3-E4 6th will beat
exactly the same as the 3rd, C4-E4. Other examples after completing the
midrange are: B3-E4-G#4, A3-D4-F#4, G3-C4-E4, E3-B3-D#4, D3-G3-B3,
B2-E3-G#3. I also find other pairs of intervals which beat exactly the
same. Certainly, where the 5ths are pure in EBVT, the minor 3rd will beat
exactly the same as the major 3rd in any root position minor triad. One of
the tests for a pure 5th is to prove this relationship.
What I heard of good pianos tuned in H.T makes the piano sound like if
it was older ( a little used). Comments from the pianist : "the piano have
drifted a bit", or "takes a cold and hot" Of course some pianists don't even
notice that the piano is in HT or reverse Well, but some do, and I prefer to
work for these ones !
to tune using the cycle of fifths oblige you to be aware of color and
musicality of the result.
That correspond to the comments I've heard yet from all tuners who
worked the HT.
EBVT (I will try it again) may well be much appreciated by musicians.
I've find the black keys very nice, white keys a bit exaggerate sometime
( raw ), but I was happy of what I find.
As I see the kind of tone you like on US pianos, may be it is a less
percussive instrument that what we have in Europ, with a more stable pitch
in unison. I think that it is fairly understandable that because of our
different culture, languages and past we ear differently (as for Asian or
African are surely hearing differently) so please don't misunderstand me.
You last comment is interesting because if anything, it is the white keys
which most people like the most. I am not sure what you mean by the word
"crude".
Less tempering in white keys = less activity in minor and major tonalities
. That is a strong color, I don't find it very warm even if very pleasing -
I did not mean sour either, may be a little rough for sure.
A friend of mine , visual impaired tuner, tells me that for him the
tempered fifths is a natural interval. When he was learning to tune the
teacher asked him to tune pure fifths as an exercise, and when he thinks he
had tuned 'perfect' fifths it was always in fact tempered ones he tuned. For
me too the (slightly) tempered fifths is sounding a natural interval, and
the pure fifths is more aggressive.
You may possibly misunderstand the meaning of that word in our language.
"Crude" is a cognate of the word "cru" in French. But this is an example
one of the "faux amis" (meaning "false friends" in English) between French
and English. The two words have different meanings in each of our
languages.
"Crude" in English means "brute" (which means "rough" in English) in
French. "Cru" in French means "raw" in English. In most any HT, there is
always the lament that the "smooth" ("suave" in French) or "sweet" ("doux"
in French) must inevitably surrender to the "rough" ("brute" in French) or
"sour" ("aigre" in French). What do you call something rough, sharp and
sourly out of tune in French? Which words do you use to describe a sweet,
gentle and pleasing sound in French?
Your French is indeed very complete, we use the same words, doux, suave,
rond, chaleureux, chaud, coloré, clair, brillant , agressif, acide, terne,
éteint, sombre, étouffé. Others came to mind but I will send you a better
list later
It seems to me that you do not like the tempering in the white keys. You
can adjust it to suit your taste or that of a customer. Start with you
F3-A3 3rd at 7 beats per second, the same as ET. Then make your C4-E4 3rd,
the G3-E4 6th and the G3-B3 3rd all beat at this same rate. You can
probably still keep the four pure 4ths and 5ths as pure or you may find that
you need to temper them just a little, but still less than in ET.
Thanks for these informations, all this is probably worth the
investissment. I often have to tune after some "Reverse Well" tuner, and
even had to learn his bearing plan to understand his error on touch ups, so
I can keep the same flavor with only a few corrections (20 min allowed
often) . But having a better understanding of tempering is absolutely the
best trick in a tuner's bag for sure. ET is not a tempering either ( I am
not afraid of flame suit, my post are not read generally !)
You can use my unique Tempered Octaves method with any of the above. Find
a sound based upon what you learn from my methods which pleases *you* and
your ear rather than trying to ascertain whether you can tune exactly the
way I do. I vary the way I tune to suit the circumstances. Making the
piano "sing" and provide the most pleasing sound for the way it will be used
is a more worthy goal in my opinion than to try to tune every piano the same
way.
This is my goal too and what I try.
My general goal with the EBVT however, is to make the modern piano sound
more in tune, "cleaner", "clearer" and more musically appropriate than ET
would and not have anyone object to anything about it, only respond
positively. I usually think more in terms of the EBVT being used for modern
music rather than early, even though it is still compatible with those
earlier forms and more musically appropriate than ET.
That is how I felled the flavor too, not specially sounding old (anyway on
this RX2 piano). I will be back to it very soon and let you know what I
find.
Regards.
Isaac OLEG
Best tech in town - (wow ! I like that !)
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