even balance weight or something

[David Love]

That's the point, of course.  You need to remove as many other variables as
possible.  Given a less responsive action and superior tone, I'm sure most
pianists would opt for tone.

David Love
davidlovepianos@earthlink.net


> [Original Message]
> From: Isaac OLEG <oleg-i@wanadoo.fr>
> To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>; <davidlovepianos@earthlink.net>
> Date: 4/28/2003 11:51:12 PM
> Subject: RE: even balance weight or something
>
>
> Interesting ideas, very ture, , I believe very much in acoustic of the
> room and of the piano too (as elements of the piano touch ) . Not sure
> that pianists could compare keyboards without a tone.
>
>
> Best
>
>
> Isaac OLEG
>
> Entretien et reparation de pianos.
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> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
> > [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la
> > part de David Love
> > Envoye : mardi 29 avril 2003 03:41
> > A : Pianotech
> > Objet : Re: even balance weight or something
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  I'll stick my neck out and say that you could easily
> > establish a standard.
> > If you could poll all pianists about their likes and
> > dislikes, have them
> > sit down to a row of mute pianos and just feel the actions,
> > my bet is that
> > there would be a fairly normal bell shaped curve with a
> > standard deviation
> > that would bring 95%of the players within a fairly narrow
> > range of balance
> > weight and regulation specs.  Some of the outliers might actually be
> > personal preference, some might be misperception.  Tastes
> > may also have
> > something to do with what people are used to.  Once you've
> > learned to get
> > what you need out of that 1970's B with more lead than wood
> > in the keys, it
> > feels normal to you. Over the past couple of years,  I have
> > defaulted
> > almost everything to a narrow range of 34 - 42 balance
> > weight with front
> > weight maximums in the 85 - 90% range depending on requests
> > of lighter
> > versus heavier and the particular set of hammers.
> > Regulation specs have
> > always taken priority and I have not deviated far from 10
> > mm dip delivered
> > by a SBR of 5.6 - 5.8.  If I had to choose a standard it
> > would be smack in
> > the middle:  38 balance weight, 5.7 SBR which produces a
> > regulation of 10
> > mm dip, front weights below maximums by 10 -15%, and
> > whatever the SW zone
> > that both fits into all that and is realistically
> > acheivable with the set
> > of hammers you have.   Setting the action up with an
> > adjustable rep spring
> > to get you that entire range quickly (if you wanted to)
> > would mean that the
> > rep spring would need to displace an average of 8 grams of
> > BW (lower is
> > better in my opinion).  With a midrange default of 38 BW,
> > to get to 34 BW
> > you would then have to go up to 12 grams for the rep
> > spring, and for 42
> > down to 4 grams leaving you a comfortable margin of error.
> > My guess is
> > that you would have very few complaints
> >
> >  David Love
> >  davidlovepianos@earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >  > [Original Message]
> >  > From: Phillip Ford <fordpiano@earthlink.net>
> >  > To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> >  > Date: 4/28/2003 1:47:43 PM
> >  > Subject: Re: even balance weight or something
> >  >
> >  > I received this e-mail privately from Rich Olmsted and
> > am responding to
> > the list with his permission as I thought this was
> > interesting and I think
> > contributions to the list from pianists are valuable.
> >  >
> >  > At 08:22 AM 4/24/03 , you wrote:
> >  > >Dear Phil,
> >  > >
> >  > >I appreciated your (below) remarks, and think you are
> > right on about
> > the
> >  > >nature of the (real world) issue(s). From my own
> > experience and in my
> >  > >discussions with colleagues (pianists all). Some observations &
> >  > >suppositions include:
> >  > >
> >  > >1.) Pianists may prefer more inertia/ heavier actions
> > because, even if
> >  > >less inertia/lighter might be personal preference, most pianos
> > performed
> >  > >on in the field (concert hall or other) would not match
> > the pianists
> >  > >personal preference so... better to be able to perform on the
> >  > >stiffest/heaviest of actions (because an audience has
> > no idea how good
> > or
> >  >
> >  > >bad (responsive) the action is). They often assume the
> > performance is
> >  > >entirely about the pianist (with the possible exception
> > of an out of
> > tune
> >  >
> >  > >piano) in much the same way that they often assume an
> > out of tune piano
> >  > is
> >  > >entirely about the tuner.
> >  > >2.) Well practiced pianists tend to develop chops & can
> > cope with
> > greater
> >  >
> >  > >inertia (they can do the heavy lifting)
> >  >
> >  >          I was aware that many pianists take this
> > approach of working on
> > a heavy action so that they can build up trength and
> > stamina to deal with
> > heavy actions when they encounter them.  One of the unfortunate
> > consequences of thisfor some pianists is physical damage.  Another
> > unfortunate consequence is that some teachers take this as
> > some sort of
> > mantra and tell their students to buy a piano with a heavy
> > action so that
> > they can 'develop their strength', even if these students
> > have no desire or
> > ability to be professional pianists, and the result is a
> > piano that's a
> > chore to play.  Also, the upper limit of what defines a
> > heavy action may be
> > > > determined by a piano action that is poorly set up, so
> > that the pianist
> > is building himself up more than he would need to if he got
> > to play on
> > actions that were well designed or set up.  I'm reminded of
> > a pianist (a
> > young woman) I saw recently on TV playing the Rachmaninoff 3rd piano
> > concerto, which she had presumably been practicing a lot.
> > She had arms
> > like a blacksmith's.
> > > >          Also, my experience as an amateur pianist is
> > that the best
> > situation for me when playing on different pianos is for
> > the piano to be
> > similar to my personal piano.  I have trouble if the action is a lot
> > heavier because my muscles are not built up to deal with
> > it.  But, I also
> > have problems controlling the action if it's a lot lighter.  If a
> > professional constantly practices on a heavy action doesn't
> > he have some
> > control problems when he encounters a very light or fleet action?
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > >These things aside,  I like choices and I don't mind
> > change IF it
> >  > produces
> >  > >a great enough return. So there is a difference between
> > the market for
> >  > >'performing' pianists (performers at multiple venues),
> > and the market
> > for
> >  >
> >  > >pianists who almost exclusively perform on their own instrument.
> >  > >
> >  > >What is difficult to manage is having the action change
> >  > >significantly/unpredictibly with every piano/venue.
> >  > >
> >  > >Maybe we (pianists) don't have much choice. I'm
> > wondering if having
> > more
> >  > >choices would just create another whole set of issues,
> > but I think more
> >  > >choices has the potential to educate, AND EDUCATION IS KEY !!!!
> >  > >
> >  > >Best, Rich Olmsted
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Good points.  The sort of range of choices that I was
> > talking about
> > really only make sense for pianists' personal nstruments or
> > for those very
> > few artists that get to travel with an instrument.  It
> > would be interesting
> > to see what pianists would end up choosing for themselves
> > if they were
> > given some options.  Performing pianists of necessity
> > desire uniformity
> > from instrument to instrument, since they are required to
> > play on so many
> > different instruments.  I suppose their ideal would be a
> > sort of 'standard'
> > > > action that would be the same from piano to piano.  But
> > what should
> > this standard action be like?  The technical community is
> > gaining the
> > knowledge to set actions up to give desired results rather than take
> > whatever results from putting a bunch of action parts
> > together.  Perhaps
> > it's time to start talking about a standard action setup,
> > just as we have a
> > standard pitch.  Performing artists would then not have
> > surprises when they
> > showed
> > > > up to play on yet another instrument unknown to them.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Phil Ford
> > > >
> > > > >Phil Ford wrote:
> > > > >I think this shows that different pianists have
> > different ideas about
> > how
> > > >
> > > > >pianos ought to feel.  I think we have been lead to
> > believe that there
> > is
> > > >
> > > > >an ideal setup and we just have to find it.  I wonder
> > if we shouldn't
> > be
> > > > >working towards having the ability to vary the feel of
> > the actions more
> > > > in
> > > > >a quantifiable way to give pianists more choice. Some
> > might like
> > heavier,
> > > >
> > > > >some lighter.  Some more inertia, some less. Some
> > evenness from one end
> > > > >to the other, others a graduation from one end to the
> > other, etc. Now,
> > to
> > > >
> > > > >the extent that we give them any choice at all, it
> > seems to be - you
> > can
> > > > >have this balance weight or that one.  Sort of like
> > saying, what
> > flavor
> > > > >would you like, vanilla or french vanilla.  I also
> > wonder if having
> > some
> > > > >of these options might change their tastes somewhat.
> > I sometimes hear
> > > > >technicians say that pianists like 10 mm keydip, heavy
> > actions, lots
> > of
> > > > >inertia,
> > > > >etc.  Not surprising, since that's what most of them
> > play on all the
> > > > >time.  They don't have much choice.  And most of them
> > don't like
> > > > >change.  But if they were given a chance to live with
> > some other
> > setups I
> > > >
> > > > >wonder if they wouldn't end up preferring them.  (I
> > suppose this is a
> > bit
> > > >
> > > > >like the temperament discussions).
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
>
>
>
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