Hello Don,
some comments interposed below: Please don't take offense, I am merely
recounting my own experiences. As I have said before on another
subject, - Is it gospel? No, just one man's opinion.
Don Mannino wrote:
> Robin,
>
>> I have tuned a very lot of them and would disagree with this.
>
>
> I have tuned a 'very lot' of them as well, with opposite experiences
> to yours. How does one decide whom is correct?
I don't know but would point out I have no axe to grind on these points,
nor do I make a living from this particular company.
>
>> Perhaps they should try it to keep the customers happy. (Sorry this
>> was a low blow but I couldn't resist it.).
>
>
> This is actually a very good point. The customers, generally, are
> very happy indeed! Your experiences are not at all the norm, but since
> your mind is made up about this issue, you cannot conceive that any
> Kawai piano will stay in tune!
I think you should let the adrenaline settle a little and read my post
again, particularly as regards some conception of whether or not all
Kawais will stay in tune. I admit I was a little inflamatory with the
reference to the carriers at Midway, I couldn't resist a little
friendly, humorous sarcasm at the factory's expense. If that has
offended you I apologize. I do, indeed, know happy customers that are
owners of Kawais also.
> Many others on this list have already written to say that they find
> Kawai pianos hold their tunings very well. A few who may share your
> opinions will say the opposite.
Opinions, obviously differ. I would suggest, as a result of
experiences, however perceived, rightly or wrongly, and, I would say
commentary for most people proceeds from their cognition of these
experiences. Not, as you suggest, for whatever purpose, necessarily as a
result of a closed mind, or to be derogatory as you suggest below.
>
>> I don't know why it would take an engineer to expect this would
>> be likely to happen.
>
>
> No one said it had to, Robin. Or were you just continuing in a
> derogatory vein?
>
>> But, one may need an engineer to consider all the other effects of
>> this motion, the forces that produce it and moment associated with
>> it. The proper design, should one be committed to such a system,
>> would be to cast a flange in the plate at the front of the block and
>> plate, thereby trapping the block and stabilizing its motion.
>
>
> This is not necessary either, because the majority of the force is
> already being borne by the plate webbing itself. The rearward force
> is relatively small, and the plate screws can easily hold the pinblock
> in place.
I don't think I will argue, given the tenor of your commentary the
merits technically of the system as I have, for the most part said all I
need to say on it.
>
>
>> Obviously, the factory believes it has a system that works and that
>> this motion is constrained but, as you can see, I must, from
>> experience, disagree.
>
>
> Well, one answer to this is that, perhaps, your experiences have been
> modified by your expectations. None of us are free from bias, and I
> submit to you that once you had one piano that gave you trouble, from
> then on you have looked for a problem in all of the others.
Rubbish, if you would read the post dispassionately, you would see that
most of the pianos I have actually worked on for this problem have been
referred to me, nor do I say all Kawais, or Yamaha's show such problems.
> And, as usual, looking for a problem, ones finds it whether it is
> actually there or not. Since a Kawai "factory rep" seems to have
> insulted your tuning skills at some point, I am sure that makes it all
> the more difficult to be neutral and unbiased.
Nice try, at, apparently a smear tactic. In fact, the factory reps did
not insult my tuning skills at all as you seem to so urgently need to
find to be the case. Rather they simply could not believe, apparently
as you do now, that their piano could have such problems and that my
suggestion that the block should fit was relevant. In reality, the
piano had been tuned for some months afterwards several times a month by
another technician who worked with the same dealer and who had
maintained the piano since its delivery, before I had ever even seen
it. The frequent complaints by the customer and the technician's own
opinion that some problem existed induced him to ask me to look at the
piano. In reality, it is of no importance to me whether the block fits
or not, as long as the piano stays in tune sufficiently - but there is
the rub.
I am sure you are a very ethical individual, no doubt, but I would
suggest, again, that, perhaps it is indeed "all the more difficult to be
neutral and unbiased" if you are on the payroll and I would suggest, if
you are in fact interested in technical opinion, that we not impugn
each others motives, as you do here and did, with the, perhaps
overstated but, nevertheless honestly expressed opinions of the other
critical poster. Rather, we should constrain ourselves to technical
commentary. I did say I personally disagreed with the statement that
Kawai blocks fail, as I have never seen one to have done so.
>
>
>> This motion, not competely constrained at times, as I believe it
>> is, although the factory will, no doubt, claim it isn't and that this
>> has been thoroughly analyzed, which it hasn't,
>
>
> This is an arrogant statement. How do you know it hasn't been
> analyzed? Because you believe so strongly that the design is wrong -
> yet I believe just as strongly to the contrary, also based on many
> years of experience in the field as well as while working for the
> company. I can only assure you that Kawai has a pretty incredible
> engineering staff who are also trained as piano technicians, and they
> have made decisions on the designs and manufacturing methods with good
> reasons. We may not agree with their reasons, of course, but saying
> it was not thoroughly analyzed shows some kind of misguided
> superiority complex on your part.
>
> In my past clientele I had no more trouble stabilizing Kawai grands
> (KGs or otherwise) than with any other brand. When I first learned of
> the pinblock fitting method when coming to work for Kawai I criticized
> it on principle - yet I also knew that the pianos were as stable as
> any, which is why I was willing to listen to the engineering
> explanation. You stated:
>
> >Admittedly, as you are lucky enough to have had an experience of,
> some of their pianos will retain an acceptable level of stability,
> although I would say it >takes an exceptional tuner to produce a
> really great level of stability on such pianos.
>
> How can this be? If there is a physical design flaw, then how could a
> better tuner have an influence? Think about it!
I have thought about it even though you, apparently can't comprehend
this, and do believe it to be so.
>
>
> Think more carefully about the stresses on the pin bushings - it is no
> harder for a hard maple plate bushing to withstand the pressure of the
> pin than it is for the top of a hard maple pinblock to do the same.
Of course.
> The potential for wood deformation and pin flex is lower, because the
> string tension is applied so much more closely to the wood. There is
> no difficulty for the bushing to withstand it's portion of the string
> tension on each string.
So what? the point is what are the consequences of applying the string
load to the plate this way. I am not even arguing against the bushing.
The point is that relying on the load being transferred this way opens
the door to numerous types of intricately interactive mechanical
mischief. No doubt, installing a bushing in which the block is
drilled at an angle that reduces pressure against the side of the hole,
but, instead allows a well fitted block to transfer a major part of the
load to flange works. I am not taking a position that a bushing is
intrinsically bad. But, if one does make the choice to rely on pressure
by the pin on the side of the hole, I don't see have anyone can justify
allowing the block to touch the flange, for the reasons I stated and
there are several others.
>
>> contributes to string breakage along with tuning instability,
>> particularly around the fourth octave and upwards as it has, I
>> believe, the effect of forcing upwards the webbing area of the plate,
>> this being also another source of the instability sometimes evident.
>> I believe that the combination of this backwards force and the moment
>> it exerts against the plate, when combined with loose plate bolts,
>> which, of course, should be prevented by proper maintainence but so
>> often are not, account, to some degree, for the frequently found
>> string breakage on such instruments.
>
>
> Here you are revealing much. On the one hand you attempt to use
> engineering terms, but then you start to call upon a belief system to
> argue a point of string breakage being related to the pinblock fitting
> system. This is quite a stretch, so to speak.
I could use engineering terms, for example, a moment diagram which
would likely show the possiblity for the problems I have described. As
you know, I am no engineer, but I don't think the turning effect of a
force which is a moment, the term I guess you refer to, should be
absent in what is, essential a forum for, at least some degree,
mechanical analysis nor should it be considered the property solely of
an engineer, per se. It means something and what I meant was precisely
what I said. I would never say as you do "Here you are revealing much"
and then attempt to discredit the messager simply because I disliked the
message as you appear to do.
>
>
>> Usually, the pianos I have repaired with these problems have
>> exhibited string breakage which, in general, ceases upon the repair.
>> The hammers are normally, voiced some too and this may, of course,
>> reduce the subsequent tendancy to breakage, although, this corrective
>> normally has already been tried before the repairs described above
>> have been made and found inadequate. .
>
>
> String breakage stops when the weakened wire is replaced or the bends
> are relocated, and the hammers are shaped. This is true in any piano
> of any brand. I worked in the field for many years, and learned this
> independently of any manufacturer's input. I would submit that you
> already know this as well, but your having mentioned that these pianos
> were voiced does not absolve you of bringing up the absurd notion that
> string breakage could be related to the pinblock fitting method.
I don't think I need any absolution, nor do I think it proper to think
in such terms for a mere critical observation, although, obviously you
do. One may have either noticed the correlation or has not.
Particularly on the pianos prior to the RX series, and I can't say
reliably about this line as I no longer do any work for a Kawai dealer
on a routine basis( and if I did I probably wouldn't after this) and
don't see enough to make assertions about them, but, on the other
lines, the KG's, for example, one can easily see a correlation between
breaking strings and a floating pinblock, at least in my opinion. When
the floating block has been stabilized, guess what, the string breakage
is either eliminated or greatly minimized. You figure it out.
>
>
> I know of a large university which bought a large stock of very fine
> pianos with full fitted pinblocks. These pianos began breaking treble
> strings within 2 years, as any brand could given the right
> conditions. That technician did not blame the piano, but the
> conditions and the style of play.
>
> As I said in my last message, I would prefer that the pinblocks were
> fitted in the factory, because when technicians have trouble
> stabilizing a piano they would be less likely to try to blame the
> piano, and more likely to find the real cause.
>
> All criticism aside, I really am sorry to hear you have had bad
> experiences with Kawai pianos, and with someone in Kawai's service
> area. Each piano brand has it's share of technicians who will
> denigrate it for practices they see as incorrect, probably because we
> all want to have some kind of apparently logical explanation for our
> personal preferences.
You can try to blow all of this off as personal preference, do as you
will. I am simply reporting some experience, both of myself and others.
Some of this experience, viz a viz Kawai has been very favorable, as I
indicated. Would you dismiss that as mere personal preference also?
> I don't expect to eliminate your objections and replace your
> experiences with any statement written here, but you should know that
> your experiences are not at all universal, and in fact are quite unusual.
Perhaps, or perhaps not. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Regards, Robin Hufford
>
>
>
>
>
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