---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment -------------------------------1096679834 Hi Dave, Andre Are we having a slight miscommunication problem or what? At least to me=20 it seems so. If different soundboard systems didn't have different designs & hence=20 different mechanical impedance we could design a hammer that would work=20 perfectly well in every piano without a needle stitch or drop of voicing so= lution.=20 Now that's a fact certain sure & simple. I think we are saying similar things or perceiving things differently fro= m=20 a kinesthetic sense or by experience or by training. Nevertheless. As one=20 who has used a variety of different types & brands of hammers I have found=20= that=20 certain types of pianos require more felt stiffness/density (or low tension= =20 high tension) than others depending on the mechanical impedance of the boar= d.=20 For example I find Mason Hamlin pianos in general in need of hammer that=20 is higher tensioned or a low one that is brought stiffer with solutions to=20 really get the piano to speak. I find this true of Mason As & BBs. I believ= e it=20 partly due to the fact that Mason & Hamlins BBs typically have boards that=20 have higher than average thickness in there panels. Many old BBS I've seen=20= are=20 .400 thou. thick& many model As commonly .375 thou. Your typical N.Y. stwy B for example I've seen as thin as ,325 but more=20 commonly in the .340 to .350 ish. All this to say that these design differe= nces=20 coupled with the effects of string scaling & bearing have a definite say=20 in how you voice your hammers. I like Andres description of the person getting older as an analogy to an= =20 older soundboard as seen below but in my opinion what Hes' saying is the same thing David i= s=20 saying but from a different angle. Yes I agree that the personality is there without as much force and so=20 in the case of the older soundboard it won't tolerate be driven by higher=20 tensioned/harder hammers especially Abels or hard Renners. I've heard many=20= a=20 flat Stwy board that sounded quite sweet with lower tension/less hard hamme= rs.=20 Yes ,a good voicer can make many different sets of hammers work on a given=20 piano but is that hammer the best choice given the age and condition and=20 tempermental -ism of the "personality" due to age. For example would I wish to use Renner blues on an older Stwy O/L from the= =20 twenties with mariginal crown & bearing. NO I wouldn't. But Yes ,I could=20 probably get a sound that was quite good, but why would I spend a day needl= ing if=20 I could install Ronsens Wurzens/Abel vfg or Bacon felt hammers & be done in= =20 an hour & have what fit that older personality more accurately with less=20 fuss? I can't think of a reason. I beleive this another way of clarifying w= hat=20 David was trying to say. I agree with Andres comments about felt completley & I'll add only one=20 caveat & that is that It can be more than felt preference but also the=20 preference based on how that felt is pressed & I'll leave it at that less t= he worms=20 escape the can again.! Just my two cents. Good post Andre Dale Erwin =20 I do not agree with you. A given soundboard has a 'certain'=20 personality, and the personality will always be the same, except that=20 the physical 'force' of that personality will diminish, just like with=20 older people : their personality is intact but their physical strength=20 has gone down over the years. When the crown of an older soundboard had lost its major power, the =20 sound gets thinner and weaker, and with physical 'distortions', and =20 that is what we call 'older'. The character however is still there but =20 maybe less 'predominant' and with the shortcomings of old age like =20 brittle bones, weaker organs, and alzheimers. There are certain aspects that could 'amplify' that weaker personality,=20 and those aspects are for instance new strings and/or new hammers. Just amplifying that older 'personality' actually creates the problem=20 we, as technicians, always encounter because we just energize the voice=20 of the old personality, but not the muscle and bone structure, so to=20 speak. In other words : if we install a granite hard hammer on an old piano,=20 we give it a granite like loud old voice and if we install softer=20 hammers we hear a renewed but velvety old voice. Through that voice we hear a more, or less, amplified personality, but=20 also the amplified weaknesses of an older body. In yet more other words=20 : installing new hammers is just a cosmetic operation. The eye lashes=20 maybe short or long, but unfortunately it is still very clear that this=20 lovely old lady is ninety years old, whatever the well known possible=20 disguises. There is however an other factor in play here : As I explained before, there are soundboards (personalities) which=20 predominantly 'show' higher overtones. Bechstein soundboards are like=20 that : their treble section is usually rather brilliant, where their =20 bass section is usually 'under developed'. In that case, when we =20 install new hammers (may they be hard or soft) we have to use a voicing =20 technique where we put the emphasis on getting out the lower partials =20 as much as possible. With Steinways it is the opposite : not creating a =20 hammer crown which causes the instrument to give more overtones is like =20 putting a bag over the head : it sounds poorly. Then there is the choice of hammers, or actually the choice of hammer=20 felt : Roughly speaking we have the four major hammer felts we all know : the=20 Wurzen predominantly used by Renner (about 90%), the VFG felt=20 predominantly used by Abel (about 90%), the Royal George felt (of late)=20 we find on millions of Yamaha's, and the Bacon felt used primarily in=20 the USA. All four felts are made of sheep's wool but have been fabricated in=20 different ways, and all four have totally different characteristics,=20 whether we like it or not. They may resemble each other because they all come from sheep's wool, =20 but their manufacturing process is quite different. The difference is =20 what we hear, and that difference is what we choose. What makes this =20 difference an issue here, is that some felts are used mainly in the USA =20 and some other felts (Royal george, Wurzen and VFG) are used all over =20 the world. In other words: we share a common felt experience and we =20 base our opinions and personal taste on this experience. Personal taste is something we can not really discuss, well grounded=20 opinions are another matter and that is one of the difficulties here on=20 this list : are we talking about personal taste or are we talking about=20 scientifically based opinions? The four felts I mentioned all have a different characteristic, despite=20 their common material basis. The way these felts were made determine=20 their characteristics, and those characteristics are factual elements=20 we can determine and classify. The way these felts sound is a totally=20 different subject and that usually leads to misunderstanding and =20 unnecessary friction. It is not wise to discuss 'beauty' or 'ugliness'. > > As far as how long a hammer will last, unlacquered versus lacquered;=20 > the > issue seems to be how much lacquer and how it is applied. A weak > stiffening solution probably doesn't do much to effect the life of the > hammer. But since lacquer gets harder and more brittle over time, a > heavily lacquered hammer will not last in terms of controllability as > long as an unlacquered hammer, assuming it hasn't been needled to=20 > death. To get down to the core of lacquered versus unlacquered is like this :=20 a lacquered wool piano hammer has fibers which have been fused together=20 into an almost (in varying degrees) unmovable non-elastic matter by a=20 binding force called hammer hardener. This piano hammer consists of a wooden molding, a staple, and a mass of=20 fibers which originally were resilient, with an elastic capacity which=20 through the appliance of hammer hardening have clotted into an=20 non-resilient and un-elastic wool mass we can compare with a very sober=20 palet (all this depending of how much hardener was used). An unlacquered wool piano hammer has a natural resiliency (in varying=20 degrees) and this elastic force we can use in the process of=20 intonation. It is like the use of a multi colored palet (all this=20 depending of how much pressure was used). Get this: Crystallized or more or less non-resilient matter, like a felt covered=20 (but hardened) drum stick, creates a 'certain' non-or- less-resilient=20 sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher overtones. The=20 spectrum is poor because of the lack of resilience. Non-crystallized or more or less resilient matter, like a (non =20 hardened) felt covered drum stick, creates a 'certain' more-or =20 less-resilient sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher and =20 lower overtones. The spectrum is rich because of the present =20 resilience. That is literally the difference between a lacquered hammer and a non=20 lacquered hammer, and that is a fact. Which hammer you like is not my business. Andr=E9 Oorebeek > > > David Love > davidlovepianos@comcast.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On > Behalf Of Richard Brekne > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:04 AM > To: ilvey@sbcglobal.net; Pianotech > Subject: Re: Evidence of overlacquered hammers > > ...That went to claims about soundboard condition dictating > this or that kind of hammer. I dissagreed ... =20 =20 Erwins Pianos Restorations=20 4721 Parker Rd. Modesto, Ca 95357 209-577-8397 Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales www.Erwinspiano.com -------------------------------1096679834 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/a9/8c/6e/9b/attachment.htm -------------------------------1096679834-- ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment An embedded message was scrubbed... From: antares <antares@euronet.nl> Subject: Re:hammers and soundboards Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 21:37:26 +0200 Size: 22501 Url: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/86/bb/a2/f4/attachment.eml ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment--
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