ETDs vs exam and master tunings

[Michael Gamble]

Hello Dave R and Listers
I have been following this thread with great interest because it seems I was
right all along - if Dave Renauds findings are any judge - and I think they
are. His items 4. and 4.? Are most revealing. I too am an aural tuner
although I do use an ETD purely to hasten the setting of the bearings. Even
so, the bearings are not set without regard to the aural response. I listen
very carefully to the results I am getting in the bearing section. My ETD is
a TLS Tuning Set CTS-5 made by Marc Vogel in Germany. It has many
temperaments on board. Its main attribute is the ability to very finely
adjust its response to within 0.01 cents. Now that's close, I'd say. Now I
believe that, given A=440, no two pianos exhibit exactly the same pitch for
any other given note. This must be due to the fact no two pianos are
identical in every respect. This is why I take all my ETD says with a "pinch
of salt". I am not satisfied with just 8ves, M4's and M5's, I go the whole
hog of M3's, M10's, M15's and even M18's. It is surprising how an
irregularity stands out when these intervals are played together
chromatically. Particularly so in the change from "metals" to "covered"
strings and at the Tenor-to-Bass  break. It has been a source of pure
amazement to me that so much of the tuning threads on the List have been as
a direct result of using nothing but Verituners and the like. I would like
to hazard that most of you would be, as Dave Renaud says in his post below:
1) I am on a concert stage tuning a D and the unit
> crashes.(once in 3 years)Whatcha goin t do lad without
> little egor yelln instructions at ya, concerts in 1
> hour.
So I am extremely sympathetic to those who, like the farmers who "do it in
wellies", do it by ear.
When it comes to "pitch raise" or "pitch lowering" then do the ETD's of this
world truly enter into their own domain. They read with absolutely no
reference to anything but their internal settings. There's absolutely no
point using the "just tuned strings" in pitch changing. You must use an
outside reference and this is the ETD. Anyone who tunes a guitar or other
string instrument will know that a change in pitch on one string will have
an immediate effect on the adjacent strings. It is also very important to
use a method whereby the change of tension is seen equally across the plate.

There is so much talk, amongst those who are not involved in actual tuning,
about the "mystery" in setting the bearings and tuning in general. There is
no mystery though, it is all based on firm fact and very strict aural
training.
My 30+ years of aural tuning bear me out.
Regards from my 2p's worth in The Village
Michael G.(UK) 

-----Original Message-----
From: Farrell [mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com] 
Sent: 14 September 2005 12:03
To: Pianotech
Subject: Re: ETDs vs exam and master tunings

Dave..... What a wonderfully thought-out post. I suspect you are 100% 
right-on with all your thoughts. Thanks for sharing and stating all so 
clearly.

Terry Farrell

----- Original Message ----- 

>   Regarding machine tunings VS master tunings.
>
>    I am a recent CTE and have observations of
> interest to this subject.
> Some interesting patterns occur when comparing a
> machine tunings to master tunings.
>
> Our new 2 Master tunings in Ottawa were done on a C7
> and a Steinway A2 respectively,
> with the following procedure.
>
> 1) Pitch raise piano with tunelab  and tune to a curve
> calculated from samples.
>
> 2)  The examination team did not like the stretch
> result in each case. It was not terrible
>    but did not represent our best effort. SO we
> tweaked the a3-a4 octave aurally until
> we were all satisfied, then we tweaked the machine
> curve till it matched what we had
> created aurally in  that octave. We now could refine
> the piano to a smooth machine curve that was based on
> the foundation of an aural stretch we liked at the
> temperament level.
>    The result was better, but still did not represent
> our best effort
>
> 3)   We then proceeded to go through step by step an
> entire aural tuning from scratch checking with careful
> aural tests at every note. We used the machine to
> record  deviations  Comparison against the machines
> prescribed smooth calculated average curve
> interesting patterns emerge.  The machine creates one
> smooth average curve, but the master tuning deviations
> follow the string scaling.
>   Deviation from the prescribed marching tuning will
> change incrementally for a half dozen notes then
> suddenly jump away from the machine tuning curve
> exactly at a string size change, then incrementally
> work its way back  to the curve, then jump again at
> the next string size change marked on the bridge.
>   Its as if sharp harmonics get progressively worse
> in the scale at a point that hey, we better change
> string size now. Suddenly the harmonic structure of
> the tone is improved. Careful aural checks will follow
> the pattern the scaling dictates.
>
>   The deviation in the low tenor can be a great deal;
> depending on the machine curve chosen the deviations
> could be enough that when using a machine one might be
> in danger of loosing points if not careful.
>
>   I was an aural tuner of 22 years, using tunelab
> these last 3 years.
>   The experience of doing master tuning has both
> increased by appreciation for EDTs strengths
> at one level, but also a greater awareness of EDTs
> limitations, and a deeper appreciation of aural skills
> and the need to preserve an aural tradition in tuning.
>
>
>    I would love to see many graphs of master tunings
> plotted against machine curves for the same piano.
>
>    Also, would users of verituner who have
> participated in master tuning comment. Verituner
> listens to each notes samples and graphs them all, so
> should reflect the scaling closer. I am told it takes
> a few passes for verituner to gather enough
> information on one piano though....comments.
>
>    On another related vein.
>
>    I have learned keeping my aural skills and keeping
> listening is important because............
>
> 1) I am on a concert stage tuning a D and the unit
> crashes.(once in 3 years)Whatcha goin t do lad without
> little egor yelln instructions at ya, concerts in 1
> hour.
>
> 2) I happly call up the tuning I want for a C7 concert
> and 3/4 through the tuning realize it is sounding less
> then stellar. I called up the wrong tuning file. 30
> min left till doors open.
>  Good thing I listened and questioned it. It was 6am
> without a pot of coffee and autopilot was tempting.
>
> 3) I go to do a tuning on a piano tuned 1 year earlier
> by another technician. This tech.tunes chromatically
> from A0, no aural checks, trusting the machine.
> B0 was C#1, C1 was a D1, others were normal. The
> machine easily become confused what note it is on in
> the bottom octave and some of the notes were 200 cents
> off, so you would go down chromatically but go up the
> scale aurally. The client had noticed, thus they had
> called a new tech, me. Let us never stop
> listening........never.
>
> 4) Sometimes, on some pianos(small ones), I just do
> not like what the machine is doing, especially
> in the low tenor crossing over to the bass. The
> machine tuning I calculate for some areas of some
> pianos just does not cut it for me. The deviation from
> a smooth calculated curve is just too much to bear.
>
> 4) Yes the machine is so efficient when changing
> pitch. Real serious intonation is only possible when
> the piano is already in tune. Careful aural tuning is
> simply better quality. Nerveless, I find for most road
> tuning more is accomplished for the client with the
> efficiency of the machine to make the best use of the
> time to achieve a fundamental level. Then the piano is
> ready to venture beyond.
>
>                                      Cheers
>
>                                      Dave Renaud