Will, It was not my intent be "...smug and sanctimonious...", as you have percieved. You have picked out what you percieve to be points of argument. Why? I have been informed by several Dealers, that Steinway has, (in an underhanded way, I might add), told dealers, theirs or others wishing to make a fair sale of a Steinway, that parts, other than Steinway make the instrument something else, other than a Steinway. I did not say that I agree with that tact. In fact, I do not! You seem to be doing the "pissing" IMHO. If you cannot hear the difference between a round hammer shank, a hex hammer shank and a carbon fiber hammer shank, then it is of no use for me to even point that out to you. <G> I, personally, can. (and I wear hearing aids.<G>) I can definately see the advantage of these parts, in your geographic area. You are fighting an uphill battle, in that regard. My area, is almost ideal and hence, I do not have the terrible issues you face in keeping good pianos in good condition and tune. I should say that I do not consider Steinway to be "ideal" in it's make-up. Quite the contrary..they are an abomination for the most part. Anything that can be done to make them play with a decent touch and tone is most definately my aim as well. I just choose to use more traditional materials. My methods are no better or worse than yours. As for the tool thing, there is no tool, commonly available, that will remove a hammer from a hollow tube, that I am aware of. If there is, then I most certainly would like to know about it and make sure that I have one, in case I run into an action with these parts. I'm sure the rest of the techs would also like to have such a tool. Just more to add to the never-ending cacophony of tools we need to ply our trade. It is quite apparent that I have insulted you, in some way. I'm sorry you took it that way. Wasn't intended on a personal level, in any way. I'll crawl back in my den, now, and leave you to your version of sanity. Joe Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon) Captain, Tool Police Squares R I ----- Original Message ----- From: William Truitt To: joegarrett at earthlink.net;pianotech at ptg.org Sent: 7/5/10 5:06:01 PM Subject: RE: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question(s) Dear Joe: I’m the guy with the Steinway A. I’ve shared my problems with the forum on these WNG parts, which lead to others who have used the parts chiming in with their own or similar issues. That, I think is to everyone’s benefit as an opportunity to learn. The times I have learned new things about my craft have usually been when I have been smacking up against a wall of one kind or another. That has been true here for me also. Frankly Joe, you sound smug and sanctimonious with your put down. What purpose that is intended to serve, I cannot ascertain. It’s my blood on the floor with the time consumption in working through installing and using these WNG parts, but somehow I can manage to be more charitable than you to Wessell, Nickel, and Gross. I bought these parts over a year ago and they sat on the shelf for quite a while before I unboxed them and hung them on the rails. What I have are early production run parts. Many (but not all) of the issues I had with them have been corrected in subsequent production runs. It’s one thing to design something in the lab and build prototypes, quite another to bring it into production. It is totally unrealistic in any new enterprise to arrive at perfection on the first day out – you don’t find out what the new problems are until you have them. I don’t even expect perfection from the other suppliers who have been around 30, 50, 100 years because I sure don’t get it from them either. And they are not always interested in listening, if they hear us at all. I was attracted to these parts not because they are modern technology, although the inventiveness behind them certainly is in many ways “modern technology” . Living in New Hampshire, I rebuild in a world of humidity extremes. So the nylon –glass composite’s stability is a definite plus. And the modularity of the parts is desirable too. I ended up relocating the capstans (had to, going from an angled heel to straight), and the relocated capstan heel was close but not exactly where the Steinway replacement whip would have been. Feels great though, and that’s the bottom line. To address your other issues: “Shank flexibility is necessary for tone and repetition.” As far as that goes, that’s a fair statement. What is the optimal shank flexibility? I don’t have that answer nor, I suspect, do you. Bruce Clark says the carbon fiber shanks are stiffer than wood, and you can ask him how much stiffer – he probably knows. But I can’t really hear a difference tonally that I can attribute to the carbon fiber shanks. If it’s there, it’s hidden under a whole bunch of other things that likely have more effect on the tone for good or ill. So I’ll simply say that I don’t think it is a significant effector on the tone. Nor have I had any issues with repetition that were attributable to the shanks. “Removing hammers, with a hollow tube for a shank, would be pretty much impossible.” Should I assume from that remark that the gold standard by which you judge new parts is whether or not you have a tool in your kit that you c an use with it? “As for the Steinway A with these parts, that’s about as far afield as it can get to NOT being a Steinway. “ Why, WHAT about them makes them any further afield than a Renner or Abel or Tokiwa? You probably know that the ONE kind of shank, and the ONE kind of whippen that we can get from you know who is one size fits all, except they don’t. We can often get parts made from other suppliers that better match the original ones of the vintage piano we are working on, or do the waters of action geometry part like the Red Sea when the G-E-N-U-I-N-E Steinway parts arrive? I say that with a modular shank and modular whippen (which is otherwise designed to be on a Steinway), I am in the best position to honor the original action geometry or God Forbid, improve it. But wait, it’s a STEINWAY, that couldn’t be possible…. I don’t use Steinway bass strings either, because I can get strings that sound much better and for less, too. And they sound like a Steinway. Wait, no they don’t – you don’t hear those shitty overtones anymore. “Not recommended for any resale situation, per most dealers I know.” This is a customer rebuild, and the customer knows I am using these parts. How large is your dealer sample on which you base your resale viability assertion? Inquiring minds want to know. Joe, when you are pissing on others, be careful where you aim. You never know when you are going to be hit by a sudden updraft…. J Will Truitt From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Garrett Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 2:20 PM To: Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft; pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question(s) Agreed. However, for odd-ball type PSO's, (which I work on, a lot), It might be the way to go, as a last resort sort of thingee.<G> Joe Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon) Captain, Tool Police Squares R I ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft To: joegarrett at earthlink.net;pianotech at ptg.org Sent: 7/5/10 10:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question(s) I guess the next tool WNG needs is an tight fitting insert with a ridge to remove the hammers. Being a traditional Steinway man, I don't think I could go that route. Al - High Point, NC From: Joseph Garrett Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 12:55 PM To: pianotech Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question(s) David Love asked: "With all these issues, what's the overriding advantage in using them?" David, Omygawd, they're modern Technology! So,....that makes em' "da best", donchaknow??<G> Personally, I'm giving all of this stuff a wide berth and wait for all the flack to quit falling.<G> Two thoughts: 1. Shank flexibility is necessary for tone and repetition, IMHO. 2. Removing hammers, with a hollow tube for a shank, using traditional tools, would be pretty much impossible, IMHO. As for the Steinway "A" with these parts...that's about as far afield as it can get, to NOT being a Steinway. Not recommended for any resale situation, per most Dealers I know. Joe Joe Garrett, R.P.T. (Oregon) Captain, Tool Police Squares R I -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20100705/54d8ad3b/attachment-0001.htm>
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC