Hi all. I've done perhaps...a half dozen replacements over the years, and have never had an acrylic clip-on elbow break. Seems remotely improbable seeing how acrylic is going to be a lot stronger than what was breaking in the first place.
-Phil, from the Blackberry Tour
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-request at ptg.org
Sender: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:01:25
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Reply-To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 104
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of pianotech digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Lester Spinet (tnrwim at aol.com)
2. Re: weird, but true (tnrwim at aol.com)
3. Tuning fork puzzle (John Delacour)
4. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (Ron Nossaman)
5. Re: Lester Spinet (Gerald Groot)
6. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (Ron Nossaman)
7. Re: weird, but true (Gerald Groot)
8. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (Susan Kline)
9. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (John Delacour)
10. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (Ron Nossaman)
11. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (John Delacour)
12. Re: weird, but true (John Formsma)
13. Re: Tuning fork puzzle (pnotnr at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:16:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: tnrwim at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lester Spinet
Message-ID: <8CCF197D6DEADCA-29D8-6EC at webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If you're lucky, the previous tuner replaced them with wooden elbow's. I
emember about 30 years ago, Yat Lam Hong asking me what I used to replace
lbow's. My answer? Clip on plastic elbows. I thought it was the norm.
is response? "Why you use plastic to replace plastic? Why not use wood?
on't break." Logical response. Since then, that's what I've done. He's
ight. Sometimes the clip ons break again, especially years later. Wooden
nes will not.
Jer
Yat Lam and I think alike. The only time I use a snap on is when I have to replace one or two. Once I warned a customer that all the elbows would break, but he only wanted to have me replace the two that were broken, with the snap ones. As I tuned the piano, four more broke before he reluctantly agreed to have me do all of them, with wood ones.
Wim
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Groot <tunerboy3 at comcast.net>
To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:43 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lester Spinet
If you're lucky, the previous tuner replaced them with wooden elbow's. I
emember about 30 years ago, Yat Lam Hong asking me what I used to replace
lbow's. My answer? Clip on plastic elbows. I thought it was the norm.
is response? "Why you use plastic to replace plastic? Why not use wood?
on't break." Logical response. Since then, that's what I've done. He's
ight. Sometimes the clip ons break again, especially years later. Wooden
nes will not.
Jer
-----Original Message-----
rom: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
f Rob McCall
ent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:10 AM
o: pianotech at ptg.org
ubject: [pianotech] Lester Spinet
Greetings List,
I have an appointment tomorrow morning with my first Lester Spinet. :-)
his piano was recently purchased by the client for a "steal" on Craigslist.
he said the previous owner told her he hadn't tuned it in a while. She
ought it so her young daughters can learn to play the piano.
I'm going to their home expecting the worst. My question to all of you, is,
hat are the things I should be looking for? Does this model have any
ecurring problems I should be alert for?
Any help is appreciated...
Regards,
ob McCall
McCall Piano Service, LLC
ww.mccallpiano.com
urrieta, CA
51-698-1875
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:21:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: tnrwim at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] weird, but true
Message-ID: <8CCF198946F4DEA-29D8-82A at webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
One day I scheduled two Wongs and a Wight. So far, I'm the only one who thought that was cute.
---Tom Gorley
I think it's cure.
Wim
-----Original Message-----
From: Qshooterq <Qshooterq at aol.com>
To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 5:54 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] weird, but true
One day I scheduled two Wongs and a Wight. So far, I'm the only one who thought that was cute.
---Tom Gorley
In a message dated 7/14/10 2:07:34 AM, tnrwim at aol.com writes:
Last week I got a call from a man wanting an estimate on re-stringing a grand piano. His name was Gerald Wong. A couple of days later I got a call from a lady who also wanted an estimate on restring a grand piano. Her name was Connie Wong. When I got her message, I told my wife, "Doesn't that couple talk to each other?"
Last week I got a call from a man wanting an estimate on re-stringing a grand piano. His name was Gerald Wong. A couple of days later I got a call from a lady who also wanted an estimate on restring a grand piano. Her name was Connie Wong. When I got her message, I told my wife, "Doesn't that couple talk to each other?"
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:52:33 +0100
From: John Delacour <JD at Pianomaker.co.uk>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <p06240813c863b0310b0e@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
This afternoon I was planning an experiment today and messing about
with a tuning fork, a board and various things in between. Listening
for all sorts of things I realised that I was hearing the octave of
the fundamental very strongly. In several situations the octave
sounded almost as strongly as the fundamental, sometimes equally
strongly, and in some cases, for example when holding the fork near
the top of the long bridge, the octave prevailed significantly over
the fundamental.
Now I am told that the first overtone of a tuning fork has about 6
1/4 times the frequency of the fundamental, so where is this octave
coming from?
JD
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:16:58 -0500
From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <4C3E0D2A.2070209 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
John Delacour wrote:
>
> This afternoon I was planning an experiment today and messing about with
> a tuning fork, a board and various things in between. Listening for all
> sorts of things I realised that I was hearing the octave of the
> fundamental very strongly. In several situations the octave sounded
> almost as strongly as the fundamental, sometimes equally strongly, and
> in some cases, for example when holding the fork near the top of the
> long bridge, the octave prevailed significantly over the fundamental.
>
> Now I am told that the first overtone of a tuning fork has about 6 1/4
> times the frequency of the fundamental, so where is this octave coming
> from?
It's coming from the handle. You get pulses at the bottom of
the handle because the fork changes length slightly as the
tines vibrate. It's longest when the tines are straight, and
shortest when the tines are at *both* the inner or outer limit
of their excursion. This happens twice with each full
excursion of the tines, so the contact pulse at the handle
bottom is twice the frequency of the fundamental.
Ron N
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:29:00 -0400
From: "Gerald Groot" <tunerboy3 at comcast.net>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lester Spinet
Message-ID: <005101cb238a$d0779cf0$7166d6d0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your input. Yes, Yat Lam is FULL of wisdom and information isn't
he? We're lucky to have him in our local chapter.
My greatest problem with replacment snap on Vagias elbows of the past?
Well, 2 problems actually.. 1. I have seen many-many of the snap on's
re-break. Right at the joint where they snap in to the whippen pin. Of
course, this was 25-30 years ago when I received the advice from Yat Lam
too. Perhaps that was why. At that time, I had such a serious continuous
problem with them re-breaking that Vagias agreed to send me many replacement
sets if I in return, sent back the broken parts. I receieved no
compensation in labor of course. This was done gratis on my behalf for the
customer. Unfortunately, that didn't prevent them from re-breaking later on
either. Usually within a couple of years or less. I brought this problem
up at chapter meetings, talked with as many different techs about this as I
could but it seems not to many others were encountering this problem. I was
installing tons of them back then. Nobody ever did seem to figure out what
was causing it short of probably just a bunch of bad batches I guess. So,
that's where my thoughts were coming from.
My 2nd problem which I still run into if I ever have to replace even one of
them is this. The keys would stick after the snap ons were installed. I
always figured it had something to do with the opening in the jaw of the
snap on elbow but never did figure it out. Once again, I went to everyone I
could think of for advice but, nobody else seemed to be encountering that
problem either. I tried everything I could think of to prevent it or stop
it from marking the wires so that they were re-installed in exactly the same
locations and positions to marking where the old elbows were and screwing
the new ones on to the mark and then stopping etc., but, nothing worked so,
I finally just said, piss on it. I won't work on them. :)
Jer
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Tom Driscoll
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 9:15 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lester Spinet
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Groot" <tunerboy3 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lester Spinet
> If you're lucky, the previous tuner replaced them with wooden elbow's. I
> remember about 30 years ago, Yat Lam Hong asking me what I used to replace
> elbow's. My answer? Clip on plastic elbows. I thought it was the norm.
> His response? "Why you use plastic to replace plastic? Why not use wood?
> Won't break." Logical response. Since then, that's what I've done. He's
> right. Sometimes the clip ons break again, especially years later.
> Wooden
> ones will not.
>
> Jer
Jer,
Respecfully to Mr. Hong I disagree. The plastic today has no relationship
to that of 1948. The advice is outdated in my opinion. Back in the 70's it
was a tough sell to use plastic to replace failed plastic but this is a new
world my Bro. I never offer another option when I stumble across on of these
jobs and I've NEVER seen a new generation elbow break. I'm down to one every
year or so as around here most of these pianos have either had the elbows
replaced or the piano has been retired .
.
Best to you ,
Tom D.
P.S. I was a young tech when Mr Hong was Journal editor and his
contributions were of great help to me.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:35:56 -0500
From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <4C3E119C.1040701 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
This happens twice
> with each full excursion of the tines, so the contact pulse at the
> handle bottom is twice the frequency of the fundamental.
> Ron N
Incidentally, you can see this in the FFT display in Tunelab.
The fork in air registers the fundamental. With the handle
pressed on the table top, you get both the fundamental, and an
octave peak.
Ron N
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:39:08 -0400
From: "Gerald Groot" <tunerboy3 at comcast.net>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] weird, but true
Message-ID: <005201cb238c$3ad12610$b0737230$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I used to have a customer named Wong. Her husband was a doctor. One day,
she forgot to turn off the house alarm. (Well, how was I supposed to know?)
When I opened the door the thing went off scaring the crap out of me. Boy
howdy, was that thing LOUD!!! 30 minutes later, here came the cops. Just
as I was leaving, of course. I was giving up on them. They checked out the
place, asked me a gazillion questions and finally left. I found out later
from his wife that Dr. Wong had to cancel his clients to come home to turn
off the alarm because he could not locate his wife. Consequently, that man
was NOT a happy camper. From what I was told, he had a lot of wong widdle
things to say to his wife about that for quite some time to come after that.
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Alan Forsyth
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 9:34 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] weird, but true
Long time ago I had a call from someone who wanted their piano tuned. I
asked their name and the reply was " same as yours". I retorted with "
that's a very unusual name Mr Sameasyours"!
AF
----- Original Message -----
From: tnrwim at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 10:07 AM
Subject: [pianotech] weird, but true
Last week I got a call from a man wanting an estimate on re-stringing a
grand piano. His name was Gerald Wong. A couple of days later I got a call
from a lady who also wanted an estimate on restring a grand piano. Her name
was Connie Wong. When I got her message, I told my wife, "Doesn't that
couple talk to each other?" Well it turned out that Gerald Wong lives on one
side of Oahu, and Connie Wong lives other side, so they aren't man and wife.
Beside, Gerald has Knabe grand, and Connie has a Hazelton.
So yesterday I saw Connie, and she introduced me to her husband. Would you
believe his name is Gerald. Well, today I saw Gerald Wong. Guess what. Would
you beleive that his wife's name is Connie. What's more, both Gerald's are
Chines, and both Connie's are Caucasians.
Now, as weird as this sound, you have to know that Wong is about as common
as Smith or Jones. But that two couple, both name Connie and Gerald Wong,
had grand pianos that needed to be restrung. Now that's totaly weird.
Wim
PS, As it wound up, the Hazelton just a had a few strings missing, but I am
putting on new hammers. But the Knabe needs new string, and the action
regulated.
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:40:25 -0700
From: Susan Kline <skline at peak.org>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100714123942.03918028 at peak.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>Now I am told that the first overtone of a tuning fork has about 6
>1/4 times the frequency of the fundamental, so where is this octave
>coming from?
Beg pardon?
Do you mean 6 1/4 times the volume of the fundamental?
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:13:04 +0100
From: John Delacour <JD at Pianomaker.co.uk>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <p06240814c863c715686f@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 12:40 -0700 14/7/10, Susan Kline wrote:
>>Now I am told that the first overtone of a tuning fork has about 6
>>1/4 times the frequency of the fundamental, so where is this octave
>>coming from?
>
>Beg pardon?
>
>Do you mean 6 1/4 times the volume of the fundamental?
No, I mean what I said. A vibrating string has the octave (or
something very close, taking inharmonicity into account) as its first
overtone, but a tuning fork doesn't behave anything like a string.
At 14:16 -0500 14/7/10, Ron Nossaman wrote:
>It's coming from the handle. You get pulses at the bottom of the
>handle because the fork changes length slightly as the tines
>vibrate. It's longest when the tines are straight, and shortest when
>the tines are at *both* the inner or outer limit of their excursion.
>This happens twice with each full excursion of the tines, so the
>contact pulse at the handle bottom is twice the frequency of the
>fundamental.
Yes, that makes perfect sense, except that rather than say the "fork
changes length" I picture a longitudinal yoyoing of the whole fork
caused by the fluttering of the tines.
I'm still curious to know, though, what causes the differences in
relative volume of this mode according to the position of the fork on
the board.
JD
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:31:30 -0500
From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <4C3E1EA2.9010806 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
John Delacour wrote:
> Yes, that makes perfect sense, except that rather than say the "fork
> changes length" I picture a longitudinal yoyoing of the whole fork
> caused by the fluttering of the tines.
Good enough, either way.
> I'm still curious to know, though, what causes the differences in
> relative volume of this mode according to the position of the fork on
> the board.
I'd say it's because the pulse is straight along the fork
axis. Touch the side of the handle to the tabletop and the
octave volume diminishes greatly.
Ron N
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:55:37 +0100
From: John Delacour <JD at Pianomaker.co.uk>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <p0624081bc863d011839c@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 15:31 -0500 14/7/10, Ron Nossaman wrote:
>>I'm still curious to know, though, what causes the differences in
>>relative volume of this mode according to the position of the fork
>>on the board.
>
>I'd say it's because the pulse is straight along the fork axis.
>Touch the side of the handle to the tabletop and the octave volume
>diminishes greatly.
Yes, but I mean pressing the fork upright on the board at different
places on the board results in a different fundamental:octave ratio.
This suggests to me that relative admittance of the two frequencies
varies. I get similar results whether the board is clamped all round
or not. As I said, the relative volume of the fundamental diminishes
when three of the boundaries of the board are close to the point of
excitation, which might suggest that the waves cannot develop in all
directions.
Is there an affordable tool to supply powerful vibrations at set
frequencies to a soundboard -- the sort of thing they use to
demonstrate Chladni patterns?
JD
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:59:38 -0500
From: John Formsma <formsma at gmail.com>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] weird, but true
Message-ID:
<AANLkTilQ7HgjOiyp7wWu7uldqejNX21wy0pqYTcSUAnD at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:49 AM, <Qshooterq at aol.com> wrote:
> One day I scheduled two Wongs and a Wight. So far, I'm the only one who
> thought that was cute.
> ---Tom Gorley
I like it!
--
JF
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:01:10 -0400
From: pnotnr at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
Message-ID: <8CCF1AED22AAF71-1558-34C1 at webmail-stg-d11.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I wondered that too, and at the risk of showing how much I don't know about this stuff, I ask the following: (and I understand that we are talking about a fork and not a string) But supposing the fork has a fundamental frequency of 100 bps, the octave (second partial) would be 200 bps. An octave above that (4th partial) would be 400 bps, and an octave above that (8th partial) would be 800 bps.
I don't have a frequency chart in front of me, but figuring 6 1/4 times the fundamental (or 625 bps) would that correspond to the 6th partial?
Gordon Large, RPT
Maine
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Kline <skline at peak.org>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 3:40 pm
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Tuning fork puzzle
>Now I am told that the first overtone of a tuning fork has about 6 >1/4 times the frequency of the fundamental, so where is this octave >coming from?
Beg pardon?
Do you mean 6 1/4 times the volume of the fundamental?
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