[CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand: Liszt/Erard

[Bdshull@aol.com]

Hi, Ed,

Please accept my apologies for my misuse/abuse of your reference to Liszt (what a great thread, huh!)   

Liszt absorbed everything;  he worshipped Beethoven, played the Sonatas all the time early on, and considered his formal musical ideas to be rooted in the progressive ways in which Beethoven structured his own music.   An upright?  interesting!  This is mere fanciful speculation here, but by the 1860's the piano had evolved to the extent that Beethoven's piano literature didn't sound like it was breaking the piano (the stress and tension in Beethoven's music is best understood on period instruments of his time);  could Liszt have played Beethoven's music on an upright to re-create this?  Probably not, but it gives me an excuse to point out again that best understand a composer's piano repertoire on an appropriate period instrument.

Bill

In a message dated 2/15/2005 9:27:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Ed Sutton" <ed440@mindspring.com> writes:

>Bill-
>I agree completely with your comments.  My statement was intentionally kept
>to one qualified sentence.  Late pictures of Liszt show him at an upright
>piano, and if I remember correctly, a quotation from a student mentions him
>playing a movement from a Beethoven sonata at that piano.  I don't know
>what to make of that. Liszt was a remarkable man, not easy to pin down.
>Ed
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: <Bdshull@aol.com>
>> To: <caut@ptg.org ("College and University Technicians")>
>> Date: 2/15/2005 9:10:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand:  Liszt/Erard
>>
>> Being a west coast resident I don't get to travel I95 often, but I don't
>forget my 5 hours on I95 in a rented Chevy S10 which had uncomfortable
>seats.  The little side jaunts in Conn and Mass were wonderful
>diversions....
>>
>> I'll leave that for what it means to the reader...if anything...but I
>have to bite on the comments about Liszt (Ed, I know your comments on Liszt
>were qualified and nuanced, but I couldn't resist this anyway).
>>
>> The question of what the composer would PREFER is interesting, but not
>nearly as important as what the composer HAD and USED, that is, what the
>composer preferred from the available instruments.  Liszt, the archetypal
>19th century progressive, went for the biggest and best machine available.
>But he had nearly finished composing by the time the modern piano began its
>development in the 1860's.  90% of Liszt's piano repertoire would be best
>understood on a reproduction Erard of the mid-19th century.  Unfortunately,
>none exist.  So we make do with restored instruments, which at least give
>us a cloudy picture.
>>
>> While Liszt played loud and fast, he played slow and singing, he played
>soft and fast...His development of piano technique brought color as a
>musical element up to the level of one of the essential elements of music.
>For us to understand the music of Franz Liszt - to understand what he heard
>and what his audiences heard - we would need a reproduction Erard.
>>
>> Unfortunately as instruments became larger they became more expensive.
>Reproductions are more expensive, too;  A reproduction Erard will be
>prohibitively expensive until an inspired benefactor commissions several to
>be built (why not build more than one, and spread the costs - and the
>benefits - out some?).
>>
>> Bill Shull
>>
>> In a message dated 2/15/2005 3:16:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Ed
>Sutton" <ed440@mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> >It's a fair guess that Chris is correct that Liszt would want the
>fastest, loudest piano available, at least if he were playing his virtuoso
>show pieces. (And maybe not for other music.)
>> >On the other hand, Chopin, Schumann and Brahms would be harder to
>predict.  We know that Chopin made peculiar selections of pianos, if loud
>and fast are the sole criteria.  Anyone who has played a Viennese action
>piano, early or late, knows that these instruments articulate the classical
>and romantic repertoire in a way that can't be done on a modern action.
>> >I, for one, don't wish to spend all my travels on I-95.
>> >ES
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Don McKechnie
>> >To: caut@ptg.org
>> >Sent: 2/15/2005 2:01:36 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand
>> >
>> >
>> >Wouldn't it be great to see Chris argue his point with Malcolm Bilson.
>Might turn into a slug fest! :-) Having lived here in Ithaca (the land of
>historical performance practice) for some time, I find listening to music
>performed on historical instruments interesting at least for an academic
>standpoint. And, occasionally it is a great musical experience. Cornell has
>a couple of pianos from the mid 1800's that sound very good and when played
>by a skilled pianist, can be very rewarding to hear. Just my humble opinion.
>> >
>> >Don
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I may as well take this opportunity to come out of the closet and
>reveal my bias, actually a pet peave, just to be fair. In case anyone
>wasn't catching the drift, I have almost no use for historical instruments.
>I can't imagine any musician of the day, say Franz Liszt, looking for "the
>good old piano." Most often professional pianists, unless they are looking
>for novelty, or are overcome with this absurd nostalgia for "original
>instruments," look for the best new piano they can find. 'Cause the design
>is up to date and the parts are new and it plays like they expect.
>Everything else is ANOMALY. And unless your customer is of that ilk I'd
>stick to I-95. (I do make one notable exception and that is reproductions.
>They make for wonderful "Historical" concerts although I do think the whole
>concept is a bit hysterical). Of course Stephen, be attentive to what Bill
>Shull and others are warning of cause this isn't I-95, but get as close as
>you can and a "NORMAL" customer will be !
>> h!
>> >appy. And BTW, sorry Bill, we're full at MARC and printed for this year,
>but I have forwarded your shameless self invitation to Steve and Paul and
>will put in a good word for you.
>> >Best to All,
>> > Chris Solliday  
>> >
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