Richard-
An amazing story!
At least the bore lengths were "wrong" in the "right" direction.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: rwest1 at unl.edu
To: caut at ptg.org
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers
The Steinway D at the University of Nebraska: This is one of three D's at UNL. It was built in 1992; it was purchased by UNL in the fall of 1999 having been in Aspen that summer for the music festival. The rumor was that UNL "stole" the piano because it was a C&A instrument that somehow got diverted to Forche Music in Houston. Probably Steinway wanted to sell it and Forche got the piano. While in Houston Dean Shank (piano technician/pedagogy instructor at Rice) "found" the piano and called one of our profs here to tell him that this wonderful instrument was for sale. The prof flew down to Houston to take a listen. He loved it. Our other piano faculty guy followed and he loved the instrument. Money appeared from somewhere. The sale was made. I didn't see the instrument until it arrived on campus. (That was before I started working at the Aspen festival) The piano did have a lovely sound. But the hammers were pretty well shot. I told the piano faculty that we wouldn't get more than a couple years out of them, so as part of the sale, Forche agreed to provide a new set of hammers when I determined that it was necessary.
I also discovered that the hammers were Hamburg hammers, although this was a NY D. I never determined whether the rumored story that we "stole" the piano from NY was true, although when the piano was inaugurated, the rumor got into the newspaper. Such a tale always adds to the perceived tone, I'm sure. But what actually happened between the pianos birth and it's arrival in Houston is still shrouded in mystery. I suppose I should have investigated its checkered past assuming that the piano had a checkered past sitting in the basement of Steinway Hall.
I'm not sure of the year that I decided to replace the hammers, but it was probably around 2003/2004. I had to badger Forche for the hammers, but I finally got them. It was my understanding that at that time Renner-made, Hamburg hammers that came directly from the Hamburg factory were difficult to get--impossible through the Steinway NY parts department. I don't know whether this was true then. At one point I heard that the "Hamburg" hammers you got through NY weren't really the same as the "real" Hamburg hammers that Renner made for the Hamburg factory. (How do these rumors get started anyway???) At any rate, Forche supposedly got me the genuine article and they looked good, same color underfelt, nice shape, harder that NY hammers. If they weren't the genuine article, they were pretty good hammers and I went with them because I didn't want to alter the basic tone of that piano.
The hammer replacement caused me much anxiety. I was planning on custom boring the hammers. I found that the plate was fairly radically canted. The bass end was almost 1/4" too high and I didn't have enough hammer molding to make up the difference. The killer octave strings were nearly perfect. Number 88 was going to have to be short. What to do. I almost rejected the set in order to get non-Steinway hammers with extra long moldings. When I checked the old set, I discovered that they were probably not custom bored, and were hung like any factory set, even if the bore lengths weren't even close in the bass and high treble. Again, what to do. My final decision? If the faculty loved the old hammers, then I'm just going to duplicate what was there and hope for the best. It was the right decision. The faculty loved the new hammers, and life went on.
I'm not sure why Paul decided to go with the NY hammers. I thought I had told him the history of things. Probably a Hamburg D set would have worked better. Maybe that's why the piano had them when the piano came to Lincoln. That's the saga.
Richard West, UNL Emeritus
I done my time and done got out.
On Feb 12, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Paul T Williams wrote:
Good suggestion, Brent.
Actually, if I remember the story Richard West told me about this piano, is that it was originally from Texas, but I might have this just right. Richard, are you out there?
I'll check those issue Monday morning. I would do it right now, but "double reed" day is going on in there....
Of course, my can of worms will get much larger if this is a problem as well!
Thanks
Paul
From: Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Date: 02/12/2011 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
You should read Overs comments on plates on his website. Also, if this was
built during the Wickham / Kelly transition you might have bass spec issues as
well as v-bar problems but it could be more symptomatic of bridge roll or
loss of crown. There isn't much wiggle room over the years for the health
of a force-crowned board and I witnessed a few Steinways in Texas that
came out of the box with reversed crown, so why don't you measure it as
well as the front to back bridge bearing so the discussion has a baseline.
Brent
--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Paul T Williams <pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers
To: caut at ptg.org
Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 2:04 PM
On my exit for today, Brent,
This is a problem with this piano.
It was supposidly a C&A piano from Texas (Ask Richard West on the history of this piano). It was chosen by the piano faculty and they loved it. It has a strange history on why its' here, btw.
Richard told me the plate was a bit misconfigured and the plate in the bass is a bit too high. This is indeed what I found when regulating the action. I have to be careful when putting the action in and out to watch for the bass hammers as they're a bit too high.
New Question: How much affect is this on voicing and tone? Or just action problems, that I've overcome????
More best.
Now I'm getting really thirsty for that pint!!
Paul
From: Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com>
To: caut at ptg.org
Date: 02/11/2011 02:56 PM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Kevin,
It's impossible to extrapolate the root cause of Mr. William's hammer
problem without a structural analysis. Must remember that these
forced-crowned boards don't last more than fifteen years for C at A
applications. Ten millimeters of crown out of the piano, five at clamping
pressure, and 2.5 strung up. I'd wonder if it was crowned in July or December?
The factory isn't exactly tight and it matters. What about the plate? Read what
Overs has to say about sand cast specifications. As far as Hamburg
hammers, you will fight serious weight issues in the bass, although NY
gets it really close now, Hamburg doesn't screw up geometry ever, as far
as I know, and they're gonna be heavier. In addition, their bass strings
have different specs than NY, the ribs are crowned, and their treble hammers
have a serious lack of under-felt but seem to sound pretty good with that board.
Solution, if it isn't structural just get another NY set and stay with NY
so your reputation can never be second guessed by a Steinway processed artist.
Brent
--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Fortenberry, Kevin <kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu> wrote:
From: Fortenberry, Kevin <kevin.fortenberry at ttu.edu>
Subject: Re: [CAUT] NY hammers/ Hamberg hammers
To: "caut at ptg.org" <caut at ptg.org>
Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:04 AM
Paul, not only do I feel your pain, but the timing of this discussion is rather good. I am faced with this very decision on several pianos. I am, like you, interested in experimenting with the NY hammers, but we are facing budget cuts/time deadlines, etc. I really wish it were possible to just order the Hamburg hammers. I have heard from several sources that they are fabulous! I spoke with another technician friend at a rather large University and he says that it IS possible to order them, but even he admitted it is hard to do. (Anyone have any idea on this? Kent?) He says they are a denser felt than the Renner Blues, but do behave and voice very similarly to the blues. Almost every piano here at Texas Tech (except the few newer pianos we have) has Renner Blues (all 3 of our D-s included) which are great, but of course are fairly high maintenance and just do not seem to last all that long. I love the idea of the Hamburgs since they are "Steinway Hammers" which satisfies those who want to stick with Steinway parts, and those of us with limited time, and very limited $$$ don't have to experiment endless hours with lacquer/lacquer thinner fumes, paint masks that do not allow lacquer fumes to be breathed right into the lungs, etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, I love our Steinways! I am gun-ho about Steinways--probably to a fault, but someone please tell why we cannot just pick up the phone and order Hamberg hammers! In the meantime, I will see what you discover with these hammers, try some experimenting (thanks Fred for all the help with this!), and maybe try those Abel Naturals everyone keeps raving when possible. I have also heard the new Steinway shaped hammers from Renner are challenging to voice--but I have only talked to one rebuilder who had to file deeply to get any real tone. This could be wrong--are these anything like the Hamgergs, also made my Renner??
Best to all, Kevin Fortenberry
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of caut-request at ptg.org
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 9:51 AM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 28, Issue 30
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Bum set of NY hammers, I'm afraid (Fred Sturm)
2. Re: Bum set of NY hammers, I'm afraid (David Love)
This set is lackluster from the bottom to the top. Perhaps they sent me a
non-prelacquered set. I kept the old hammers and shanks, so I might switch
them out, bring the new set to the shop and soak the crap out them with a
4:1 mix. I guess I have nothing to lose and education to gain from this.
This is my first set of NY Hammers. I've been using Wallys Naturals for
years. Maybe I shouldn't have messed around in a new world. I would have
put on another set of Abels, but the piano dept head insisted on Steinway
hammers as he's a "Steinway Concert Artist". I perhaps shouldn't have said
anything, eh? and just used what I know how to use.
What's to expect from Hamburg hammers? Never used those either.
Keep em coming. Thanks guys!
Paul
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