key dip, dip in.....

[Avery Todd]

Hi Andre,

Well, maybe I'm not so stupid after all! That's (10mm) is ALWAYS what
I start with. And I keep it there unless I absolutely HAVE to change
it to get things to work out! Thanks for your post!

Avery

At 08:08 PM 10/18/02 +0200, you wrote:




> > From: Richard Brekne <Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no>
> > Reply-To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
> > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:03:57 +0200
> > To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
> > Subject: Re: key dip
> >
> > antares wrote:
> >
> >> I personally have come to the conclusion that there is actually just 
> one key
> >> dip and that key dip is 10 mm sharp, and no more than 10 mm.
> >> All piano makers in the world have a key dip of 10 mm except the earlier
> >> Pleyels, Blüthners and modern Steinways.... although, when I had my 
> lessons
> >> at Steinway the head technician at the regulation department told me 
> that he
> >> thought a key dip of less than 10 mm on any Steinway was bloody baloney.
> >
> > First off... I have 6 manuals in front of me. 4 of them official 
> manufacturers
> > specifications. I quote from these for your edification.
> >
> > Schimmel Grands
> >
> > Over 2 meters --- key dip 10.4 -10.8
> > Under 2 meters -- key dip 10.2 - 10.6
> > Blow ranges from 44 to 46 in the specifications, and 44 to 48 in the grand
> > requlating guide.
> >
> > Schimmel Uprights
> >
> > Key dip 10.2 +/- 0.2, and 9.9 +/- 0.2 for pre 1985 models. blow 43 / 46
> >
> > Yamaha grands
> >
> > Key dip 10 mm +/- 0.2. Laroy Edwards gives 10 mm and says temper this with
> > common sense and a knowledge of action function.
> >
> > Kawaii Grands
> >
> > Key dip for KG-8 is 11 mm, all other models is 10.5
> > blow is 46 -48
> >
> > I could go on and document factory  specifications that range from 9.5 
> to 11
>mm
> > quite
> > easily. Again I must insist that there is no basis for demanding that 
> the 10
> > mm key
> > dip has shown itself to be the best. Nor is it true that all or even the
> > extreme
> > majority of manufacturers specify this. I will go along with that close 
> to 10
> > mm is
> > a good norm, and it is indeed the one I choose. But to declare it as a
> > universal
> > holy grail I will not.
>
>
>OK brother,
>
>Touché and very clever.
>
>But....
>On the other hand, the average key dip in the world is 10 mm and the
>majority of all pianists wants 10 mm.
>
>When I started learning piano stuff on the piano technical school I learned
>that key dip is 10 mm.
>When I started as an apprentice at Goldschmeding (then the biggest piano
>store in Amsterdam) a special key dip tool was made for me to make sure that
>my key dip should always be 10mm.
>When I went to Bösendorfer for factory training, they made sure I understood
>that key dip was 10 mm.
>When I went to the Yamaha they trained me (as I said before) for one week to
>learn what exactly a 10 mm key dip feels like.
>Afterwards I received a regulation and service manual (the authentic Yamaha
>"Basic piano technology book") where on page 155, Chapter VII of Grand
>regulation, a key dip is given of exactly 10 mm with a striking distance of
>46-48 mm.
>Then I went to Steinway where they taught me to forget about the lesser
>Steinway key depth (9.8 or something?) for all models from S to B and
>instead go ahead with the usual 10 mm.
>And last autumn I went to Bechstein in Berlin where exactly the same 10 mm
>is applied to all instruments.
>
>And...
>after all the countless regulations I made on all kinds of makes, I now
>insist on a key dip of 10 mm, whether the striking distance is 40 or 50 mm.
>If any factory prescribes a key dip of more or less, than I say : they do
>not conform to the key dip that has been developed during the last 100 or so
>years. When the most well known and very best piano makers in the world use
>a key dip of 10 mm, than I have reason to learn from them and make those 10
>mm my own.
>
>During all those years of learning the process of regulation I have had a
>thorough experience in experimenting with a key dip of 10 plus or minus.
>After my lessons at Yamaha I knew better, and 10 mm it will be.
>When I now regulate a grand piano I make it a sport to make a very very
>precise key dip with the biggest striking distance possible.
>This means : a very sharp regulation with a dot on every i.
>I (almost) always succeed in making a delicious and safe regulation with
>enough after touch. After finishing a regulation the moment of truth comes :
>I go to my tool bag and get out the yellow Yamaha striking distance gauge I
>have not yet used during regulation, and I measure hammer section after
>hammer section. Usually I get my reward for precision work with a full 46 mm
>and often I get a bonus with 47 or even more.
>
>That always means getting a well regulated action with a safe touch, and a
>lot of power.
>We have done exactly that on the STW B in Bergen during the seminar and it
>came out beautiful, so why not accept the approved (by almost all) standard
>and use the 10 mm as the reliable basis it really is?
>
>
>
>
>
> >> In regard to making key dip : I had to train one whole week to learn 
> what a
> >> perfect key dip is.
> >
> > Hmmm... interesting concept... the perfect key dip. Could you describe that
> > for us
> > in terms of regulating specifications ?
>
>Because making the right key dip is actually very difficult (as it relies on
>individual finger pressure) I had several minor misunderstandings over this
>issue with my instructor (a very fine Japanese gentleman who spoke very good
>English as he had been stationed in London for a number of years as a
>concert technician). When he finally began to understand that I was just
>plain dumb and ignorant he got out "the weight". This was a small weight of
>exactly 250 grams which the use as an example for making key dip.
>So they place the weight on the (white) key and then you place your key dip
>block in front of it in order to feel the dip with your fingers.
>You then train with this weight for a long time to make sure that you
>understand exactly how hard to push with your finger/key depth gauge to get
>exactly the desired 10 mm.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> After that, when I read about various key dips, I always feel this urge to
> >> open up the magic box and type in the words I just typed in.
> >
> > Heck Andre... agree or not... I respect and admire your advices and
> > expererience in
> > all things piano !
>
>Hey Ricardo mio!
>when we meet again, the next 5 rounds of anything drinkable are mine...OK?
>or should I have said 10?  (;
>
>With even higher elevated friendly greetings
>from
>
>Antares,
>
>Amsterdam, Holland
>
>"where music is, no harm can be"
>
>visit my website at :  http://www.concertpianoservice.nl/
>
>
>
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