Tuning with a fork and the Sanderson Baldassin procedure.

[David Ilvedson]

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I have no problem with floating pitch a small amount...3 cents=
 sharp...maybe... but 1 cent flat max.   I agree with "what's the=
 point of determining with 15 minutes of tests how far off A440=
 you are...I will have gone the through the piano with a 3 cent=
 pitch change in that amount of time....maybe 20 minutes.   What=
 is the nicest thing about a SAT III or equal is the ability to=
 quickly go through the tuning and see what has changed.   Tenor=
 gone sharp?   Whatever...I can't imagine stumbling around with a=
 tuning fork anymore...and I can see where your coming from=
 Richard.   Change as little as possible for the most stable=
 tuning.    

David Ilvedson

----- Original message ---------------------------------------->
From: Richard Moody <remoody@midstatesd.net>
To: <tcole@cruzio.com>, 'Pianotech' <pianotech@ptg.org>
Received: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:09:29 -0500
Subject: RE: Tuning with a fork and the Sanderson Baldassin=
 procedure.

To match a string on the piano with an A440 tuning fork or A442=
 tuning fork takes a little more time than using a $19 pocket=
 guitar tuner and is useful really only for a "test".   BUT in=
 reality you never match A440, you only determine how far you are=
 from it and make a decision as the expert, to say, "this is=
 close enough", or " the pitch needs to be raised and I need two=
 tunings to get as good as I can get it.  If the pitch needs to=
 be raised you must make an expert guess how far above the pitch=
 you should go. 
    If the piano is sitting on 439 or 441 and the contracts calls=
 for 440, you are in compliance if you tune the piano to its A4=
 within this slight variance.    So machine tuners adjust the=
 machine, and aural tuners go ahead for the touch up.  For some=
 machine tuners 4 cents may look like a lot.  But for musicians=
 it is no problem. 
 
If you want to deliver the best tuning, any pitch raise should be=
 touched up or at least "inspected" 24 hours later to allow for=
 "settling"
and this is only the first of a number of considerations before=
 changing the pitch of a performance instrument.  Because to=
 raise to pitch you must go OVER pitch which is a guess because=
 you know the piano will come down---but how much???  So what is=
 the point of determining with 15 minutes of tests how far off=
 A440 you are with a tuning fork?  Just  holding it in your hand=
 for 30 seconds will change its pitch as the cheapest electronic=
 pocket tuner will show.    So I have always advocated a range of=
 1 cps below or above  the desired pitch is OK and the piano will=
 be in better tune for the performance if tuned within this=
 variance rather than raised or lowered to  5 or .5 cents=
 according to the machine.     
    Lately I have been listening to the fork, putting it down,=
 listening to A4 on the piano and if it sounds close enough, the=
 tests come out closer than you would expect.   For "accurate"=
 pitch raises you do need to know the beat rates as determined by=
 the fork or  the reading of A4 by a machine. 
  For concert tunings it is getting to the point where you should=
 see what the electronic tuner says because these days most=
 musicians carry a cheap pocket tuner.  In the "good ole days" I=
 bet it was between 438 and 442 before they complained.  
    Of course you can go on and on, like listening to F2 on the=
 piano with the tuning fork in your teeth. and comparing  the=
 rate of F2 and A4 (10th) on the piano.  But still, if you have=
 to raise pitch the rate of A4 on the piano it will beat sharp=
 with the fork  at first.   By how much??  Experience is the best=
 mentor.
 
Richard Moody     www.pnotec.com 
 
    
"By far the best proof is experience".     Sir Francis Bacon=
 (1561-1626); English author and philosopher.
 
 
 []   -----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org=
 [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Cole
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:40 PM
To: Pianotech
Subject: Re: Tuning with a fork and the Sanderson Baldassin=
 procedure.


You don't need to count beats or make any calculations, although=
 I did find it useful, at first, to tune a couple of contiguous=
 thirds - for example, G2 - B2 and B2 - D#3 which have an approx.=
 4 beats to 5 beats ratio - to learn what this relationship=
 should sound like.

What makes this method work so well is that you can run a series=
 of three contiguous thirds and easily decide if the middle one=
 sounds more like the lower beat rate or the upper beat rate and=
 adjust accordingly.

Tom Cole

Alan Forsyth wrote:

Isaac mentioned;
 
"One of the nicest tricks I learned with the different Us methods=
 is
the 4:5 relation from contiguous thirds. ............"
 
I tried this once long ago but was flummoxed when it came to=
 distinguishing the ratios. How on earth is one supposed to tell=
 aurally whether one beat rate is 25% faster or 20% slower than=
 another beat rate?
 
AF


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